The Caravan - page 25

"I think what we have seen is we've seen clearly an organization at a higher level than we've seen before. We've seen violence coming out of the caravan and we've seen as they've passed other... Read More

  1. by   Tweety
    Quote from SC_RNDude
    Back at you.

    The Obama cult - Lexington

    Now, can we move on? Or, maybe you can start your own thread on this topic.

    I do wish we could move on from Obama. I've advocated that time and time again but we can't help ourselves.

    Since the article is old I'll post this quote: "All presidential candidates promise more than they can possibly deliver. This sets them up for failure. But because the Obama cult has stoked expectations among its devotees to such unprecedented heights, he is especially likely to disappoint. Mr Healy predicts that he will end up as a failed president, and "possibly the least popular of the modern era". It is up to Mr Obama to prove him wrong."

    I remember us that were here having a discussion about this when the article came out years ago.

    Then I'll post this. The "cult" hasn't faltered.

    Barack Obama greatest president of our lifetime, 44 percent tell Pew
  2. by   Tweety
    Quote from SC_RNDude
    Perhaps it's time to cut down our legal immigration. Maybe to our pre 1990's numbers, when it was approximately half of what it is now.

    63% of Non-Citizen Households Access Welfare Programs | Center for Immigration Studies
    From the above article:

    "The primary reason welfare use is so high among non-citizens is that a much larger share of non-citizens have modest levels of education and, as a result, they often earn low wages and qualify for welfare at higher rates than natives."

    I don't suppose having a livable wage for working people would help?

    I suppose one of the differences between the native born that seem to have a cycle of generation after generation on welfare programs is that immigrant children sometimes get off of it. Immigrants come here to make a better life for their children and study after study shows they are successful at that.

    Second-Generation Immigrants Outperform Others in School - The Atlantic

    Immigrants drop subsidized food, health programs - fearing aid will be used against them

    Do immigrants receive more welfare money than natural born US citizens? - CSMonitor.com
    Last edit by Tweety on Dec 4
  3. by   SC_RNDude
    Quote from Tweety
    From the above article:

    "The primary reason welfare use is so high among non-citizens is that a much larger share of non-citizens have modest levels of education and, as a result, they often earn low wages and qualify for welfare at higher rates than natives."

    I don't suppose having a livable wage for working people would help?

    I suppose one of the differences between the native born that seem to have a cycle of generation after generation on welfare programs is that immigrant children sometimes get off of it. Immigrants come here to make a better life for their children and study after study shows they are successful at that.

    Second-Generation Immigrants Outperform Others in School - The Atlantic

    Immigrants drop subsidized food, health programs - fearing aid will be used against them

    Do immigrants receive more welfare money than natural born US citizens? - CSMonitor.com
    There is a school of thought that immigration drives down wages, as does welfare.
  4. by   SC_RNDude
    Quote from toomuchbaloney
    Nope.
    This thread is a really good place to discuss the realities and dangers of having a cult leader setting national policy because "the caravan" is a tool used by the cult leader to stir the Us v Them sentiments and fears of his cult.

    Funny thing about deflecting to Obama in this discussion, you haven't actually demonstrated how support for Obama was cult like. Neither did the article. It's unsurprising opinion but has no factual or even observational foundation. Perhaps, if you truly believe that there was/is an Obama cult, you could outline how that Obama cult reflects the classical signs of a cult.

    Instead we can continue to attempt to interject critical thinking, historical context, and calm common sense into the indoctrinated thinking that would cause one to believe Trump's fear mongering about these poor people.
    The only problem with your "us vs them" theory is that the caravan wasn't manufactured and supported by Trump, Republicans, or anyone associated with the right wing.

    Go ahead and keep on with your cult comparisons and name calling if you like. I have no time for it, and won't be viewing it.
  5. by   Tweety
    Quote from SC_RNDude
    The only problem with your "us vs them" theory is that the caravan wasn't manufactured and supported by Trump, Republicans, or anyone associated with the right wing.

    Go ahead and keep on with your cult comparisons and name calling if you like. I have no time for it, and won't be viewing it.
    No one is saying he caused this. It's the response sometimes that's a bit cult like. Like the one I told you about that says she can't go to college because these immigrants are going to walk in and get free tuition, but Trump is going to stop that. That's practically cult like to me.

    I realize that's an extreme and appreciate that you don't want to hear that Trump supporters as a group are cult like.
  6. by   Tweety
    Quote from SC_RNDude
    There is a school of thought that immigration drives down wages, as does welfare.
    I can understand that. Why would a company want to pay a living wage when they know their employees can qualify for welfare?

    I also understand that increasing the labor pool with immigrants drives wages down. Still a lot of those jobs aren't jobs that Americans want. I look around here and almost all the housekeepers cleaning toilets in the hospital are immigrants from the Carribean. I can't answer about the field workers as we're urban, but I do know from outreaches of the UU Church I used to go to that farm workers are largely immigrants from Latin America...and even though they are working the fields they are poor with a capital "p". They probably are keeping the wages down, but that's also because they are hard to fill jobs.

    Access Denied

    The link above is to a article about Florida's migrant workers from USA Today. Not sure why it says "access denied" but it's a legit link.

    US farmers, desperate for help, increasingly turn to Mexico - CSMonitor.com


    But we want cheap things like cheap food that they pick, cheap goods from Walmart, etc. We can't have it both ways and we're opting for cheap.

    I only have my own thoughts since you aren't explaining yourself.
    Last edit by Tweety on Dec 4
  7. by   toomuchbaloney
    Is the suggestion that we should have pre 1990s but post 1890s immigration policy?

    I suggest that we update our immigration policy to 21st century realities, to reflect our national values and ambitions.


    What are our goals, priorities, and values that should be reflected in maintenance of a secure border?
  8. by   Tweety
    Quote from toomuchbaloney
    What are our goals, priorities, and values that should be reflected in maintenance of a secure border?
    That's the million dollar question that we can't agree on. Some say the Statue of Liberties ideals are what we should strive for, others say that's way outdated, that we shouldn't let anyone in, that we should take care of our own and put Americans first.

    I do think that most of us don't like illegal immigration, but don't agree that we should put up a wall or have a huge military presence on our border.

    And so it goes.......
  9. by   toomuchbaloney
    What can we agree upon?
    Can we agree that we should allow people to ask for asylum at our border?
  10. by   Tweety
    Quote from toomuchbaloney
    What can we agree upon?
    Can we agree that we should allow people to ask for asylum at our border?

    No we can not. We're tear gassing them instead.
  11. by   SC_RNDude
    Quote from Tweety
    No we can not. We're tear gassing them instead.
    Maybe I missed something. I'm only aware of tear gas being used on one afternoon with this current group of migrants.
  12. by   nursej22
    Quote from SC_RNDude
    Maybe I missed something. I'm only aware of tear gas being used on one afternoon with this current group of migrants.
    Didn't you post a link on 11/29 about repeated incidents of using tear gas and pepper spray? During this administration and the previous one?

    Obama Used Tear Gas At Least 8 Times at Border
  13. by   nursej22
    Quote from toomuchbaloney
    Is the suggestion that we should have pre 1990s but post 1890s immigration policy?

    I suggest that we update our immigration policy to 21st century realities, to reflect our national values and ambitions.


    What are our goals, priorities, and values that should be reflected in maintenance of a secure border?
    How about starting with the immigration reform bill passed by the Senate in 2013, that the House wouldn't bring for a vote?

    Senate 'Gang of Eight' releases immigration bill

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