"When they go low, we kick them" - page 4

- Eric Holder is this really how we want to be perceived?... Read More

  1. by   macawake
    Quote from toomuchbaloney
    So are we going to pretend again that Russia didn't engage in a massive misinformation campaign to drive angry Americans to the polls to vote for Trump?
    Yes, that is exactly what a significant portion of the population, including some posters here, are going to keep on pretending.

    Quote from macawake
    Thanks to your system of electoral votes you have a President who has the support of less than half of the people who voted.
    Quote from SC_RNDude
    You do realize Clinton only got 48% herself, don't you?
    Yes, I do realize. This is a perfect example of what I dislike about your style of argument. You know exactly what I meant but you still feel the need to make a silly point. I'll rephrase eventhough you understood my point just fine the first time. Thanks to your system of electoral votes you now have a President who got fewer votes than his main opponent. Better?

    Quote from SC_RNDude
    Take away California's vote, and Trump won the popular vote.
    I don't understand the point of this exercise. What do you prove by pretending that your most populous state with almost 40 million residents shouldn't factor into the equation? Are they planning on seceding? (Okay, that last part was snark). But really, I don't understand your argument.

    Quote from Lil Nel
    For people still clinging to that quaint notion of kindness and civility: Wake Up.

    As the article Tweety posted, and macawake referred to, we are dealing with an entity that sees kindness and civility as a weakness.

    That is how Trump's deplorable behavior has been allowed to escalate, unabated.
    I still cling to the quaint notion of kindness and civility and I'm pretty convinced that you do too, in other arenas than the current political situation. But I think your point here is, and I agree, that kindness and civility is sadly inadequate when you face forces that will only take advantage of kindness and who have nothing but disdain for people who attempt to play by the rules.

    These are abnormal times. In my opinion they call for a different set of rules. Passively accepting that the goalposts of what's considered acceptable behavior, are constantly moved, is in a way condoning the "new normal".

    Democrats and Republicans who oppose what's happening to your country need to get angry. I don't mean violence. I mean you need to get louder. You need to make your opinions and your values heard.

    As I watch and read your news, I worry that the Democrats will lose in November. To me it's almost a given that the Republicans will keep the Senate but I'm also not confident that the Democrats will get a majority in the House. I think that would be catastrophic for your country, since the current Congress have pretty much abandoned their responsibility to act as a check on your President. They're a bunch of enablers. I hope I'll be proven wrong and that Democrats get at least a decent majority in the House.

    What I see in the media, left, right and center, is that The Party of Trump gets all the oxygen. I don't see a clear message from the Democrats. I don't see enough passion from them. I don't see them shining a big, bright light on all the lies and amorality that's on display on an almost daily basis. I don't see them calling out those who make a mockery of your proud tradition of once being a land of hope and a land that stands up for and defends democratic values.

    They are lukewarm, milk-toast, passive, and they are being completely steamrolled by the other side. The Republicans, as depraved as their current political agenda is, are much better at playing the game.

    When President or a member of his administration does something negative and worthy of criticism, they get praised in the right-wing media. From the left we see a little tut-tutting and handwringing, but that's about it.

    When someone on the Democratic side does or says something negative, the right-wing media goes absolutely bananas and their talk show hosts will augment, embellish and outright lie about the facts, milking it for every ounce of Trump base energizing that's humanly possible. And the left falls over themselves criticizing their own, in order to prove how fair-minded and rule-following they are.

    Good luck with that.

    Quote from SC_RNDude
    The structure of the Senate was a compromise between the bigger states and the smaller states. As you know, the House is representation based on population. The Senate gave smaller states equal representation to the bigger states in one Chamber of Congress. Some believed, correctly in my opinion, that if all representation was based on population that smaller states would often have their interests ignored without much recourse.
    So the answer is to award people who choose to live in less populous states, disproportionate power?

    How is it more fair that the minority get to rule the majority, rather than each person's vote having the exact same worth? What you have today is a system where a minority are allowed to IMPOSE their will on the majority.

    Case in point...

    Nomination & Confirmation Process - Supreme Court Nominations Research Guide - Guides at Georgetown Law Library

    Appointment and confirmation to the Supreme Court of the United States - Wikipedia

    You have two chambers in Congress. One based on population and one which overwhelmingly favors sparsely populated states.

    Then you allow one of the most long-term consequential decisons for all citizens and residents of your country to be made by the chamber that has the extremely disproportionate representation.

    I've tried to figure out if the House of Representatives are engaged in any stage of the process of choosing and confirming Supreme Court Justices. As far as I can tell, it's entirely a President + Senate affair. Am I wrong?

    Supreme Court decisions have profound impact on people's lives. Why do you think minority rule is fair?

    I mentioned in another thread that I think that many of Trump's followers have authoritarian traits. I stand by that assessment. Authoritarians are, among other things, characterized by the fact that they think it's acceptable to force their values on others. It's not enough to have those values for oneself, but others should be forced to live by their values. This is entirely consistent with being onboard with the idea that a minority should be able to decide how the majority should be allowed to live their lives.

    A resident/voter in Wyoming has approximately 68 times more power when it comes to affecting the confirmation of Supreme Court justices, than a resident of California does. A voter in South Dakota has a voice that's roughly TWENTY-THREE times as powerful as a voter in New York.

    Because you allow disproportionate power to sparsely populated states, you have a Supreme Court that's ideologically out of sync with "you the people".

    Quote from herring_RN
    I am not a snob, but I won't curse and call names.
    I will counter lies with truth.
    I used the word snob deliberately. I was being a bit provocative on purpose. But the word wasn't aimed at any particular poster. It was aimed at myself as much as anything.

    If I'm honest with myself, for me personally it is a form of snobbery to refuse to stoop to the "deplorables'" level. That way I know I'm better than them and get to feel a bit good about myself.

    I actually think Hillary was correct. Some of Trump's supporters actually are deplorable. They deserve the moniker.

    People who cry that poor Justice Kavanuagh was treated unfairly because people are "innocent until proven guilty" (the criminal court of law standard), but CHEER and chant "lock her up" about Clinton and even Senator Feinstein (!), are deplorable.

    People who cheer and LAUGH when a victim of attempted sexual assault is being mocked and ridiculed on a public stage in front of thousands spectators and millions of TV viewers, are deplorable.

    People who fail to condemn cruel policies that separates young children from their parents and lock them up AS A deterrent, are truly deplorable.

    People who cheers a President who praises a member of Congress who has committed the crime of assault against a member of the media, are deplorable.

    I could go on all day long... It's a long list of reprehensible behavior. They should be called out on it.

    Quote from herring_RN
    I will listen to people who disagree with me IF they are willing to have a civil conversation. Sometimes a person changes their own mind when questioned about their ridiculous belief in falsehoods.
    I agree with you. Dialogue is a good thing and I will have it with anyone who's civil. However, I don't have much hope that the most fervent and zealous Trump supporters are going to change their minds based on reason, logic or humanitarian values.

    They will in my opinion only abandon their support for him if his policies start affecting their own lives too negatively. I'm waiting for the moment when reality finally dawns on them, and they finally see that his administration's policies will not benefit low and middle income citizens in the long run. Wait until they realize that the coal jobs aren't coming back and that tariffs will hurt them where they feel it. Wait until they wake up to the fact that "preexisting conditions" will make it impossible for them to afford healthcare.

    Let's just hope that this administration doesn't manage to completely wreck your country, before the deplorables experience their epiphany.

    Am I being deliberately provocative?

    You bet.


    (I know that many of the posters here actually do all that's in their power to affect change. My criticism is levelled at the "aggragate" or stereotypical Democratic politician and how much of the media reports about this administration).

    One final thought. I made a point of answering OP's question by saying early on in this thread that yes, that's exactly how I would want to be perceived if I was an American.

    I think this thread is a part of the campaign we saw in right-wing media and heard from the Administration, that those who voice dissent against Trump, are part of a violence-prone mob. This of course, is utter rubbish.

    But I think it has a dual purpose. I think this narrative that the left are prone to violence and the attempt to twist Holder's words, are also squarely aimed at and tries to capitalize on, the Democrat's talent for self-censorship and self-recrimination.

    If the people who oppose Trump are busy lecturing each other on etiquette and decent behavior or perhaps just spending a lot of energy talking about it, they won't have enough time to do what really matters. And that is to come up with a forceful and persuasive argument about why it's vital that people go out and vote in November.

    Divide and conquer.

    Age-old strategy.
    Last edit by macawake on Oct 21 : Reason: One final thought to add :)
  2. by   GrumpyRN
    macawake; wow, just... Wow.
    A big thumbs up!!!
  3. by   chare
    Ted and Lil Nel, thank you. Apparently I shouldn't post after night shift.
  4. by   Lil Nel
    Apparently Republicans nationwide are embracing their White Nationalist supporters.

    Aside from the incident in FL that I posted earlier, a week or so ago, in NY, the Metropolitan Republican Club presented Gavin McInnes, founder of the Proud Boys, as a guest speaker.

    Wow.

    Republicans are no longer hiding their blatant racism.

    It is front and center for all to see.

    Yep.

    Deplorables.
  5. by   herring_RN
    I did the AIDS Walk this morning with my Star Trek club. My member of Congress, Ted Lieu was there too. Lots of actors I recognize from TV walked. Lots of teens as walkers and volunteers. The three of us raised $511.00. Total was more than $82 million. Medications cost about $2,000.00 a month. For many insurance pays. They do a lot to help those who can't afford their meds, and lots of other help too.
    Representative "Auntie" Maxine Waters was there straight from church.
    Welcome to APLA Health
  6. by   Lil Nel
    Quote from herring_RN
    I did the AIDS Walk this morning with my Star Trek club. My member of Congress, Ted Lieu was there too. Lots of actors I recognize from TV walked. Lots of teens as walkers and volunteers. The three of us raised $511.00. Total was more than $82 million. Medications cost about $2,000.00 a month. For many insurance pays. They do a lot to help those who can't afford their meds, and lots of other help too.
    Representative "Auntie" Maxine Waters was there straight from church.
    Welcome to APLA Health
    Good for you, herring.

    I did the AIDS walk when I lived in Boston.

    Loved it!

    It was one of my favorite charity events.

    Walked one year with a complete stranger. Her brother had died recently of AIDS.

    She was walking in his name, and didn't think she could do it.

    I told her: Yes, you can, and guided, cajoled and talked her through it.

    She took me out to dinner after the walk, as a thank you.
  7. by   elkpark
    Quote from Lil Nel
    Apparently Republicans nationwide are embracing their White Nationalist supporters.

    Aside from the incident in FL that I posted earlier, a week or so ago, in NY, the Metropolitan Republican Club presented Gavin McInnes, founder of the Proud Boys, as a guest speaker.

    Wow.

    Republicans are no longer hiding their blatant racism.

    It is front and center for all to see.

    Yep.

    Deplorables.
    Another well-known, long-time GOP pundit left the party over the overt racism (even wrote a book about the demise of the Republican party as he knew it). Recent interview with him:

    Max Boot on the end of conservatism: “The Republican Party needs to be burned down” | Salon.com
  8. by   Lil Nel
    Quote from elkpark
    Another well-known, long-time GOP pundit left the party over the overt racism (even wrote a book about the demise of the Republican party as he knew it). Recent interview with him:

    Max Boot on the end of conservatism: "The Republican Party needs to be burned down" | Salon.com
    Reminds me of the story a woman at the barn told me about her recently deceased father.

    He was a lifelong Republican, who couldn't stand the recent changes in the party.

    Of Trump he said: "He's crazy."
  9. by   nursej22
    To those with Netflix, I recommend a documentary on a long-time Republican operative and friend of Trump, "Get Me Roger Stone." It details his history of dirty, win-at-all cost tactics.

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