"When they go low, we kick them" - page 3

- Eric Holder is this really how we want to be perceived?... Read More

  1. by   nursej22
    Quote from chare
    North Dakota's estimated 2017 population is 755,393. With 2 senators and 1 representative, that's 1 electoral vote per 251,797 persons. California's estimated 2017 population is 39,536,653. With 2 senators and 53 representatives, that's 1 electoral vote for 718,848 persons.



    If you are going to compare state population with electoral votes, you should consider using representation in the US House and Senate, as that is what the electoral college is based on, and not the membership of the state house and Senate.
    I stand corrected. I was posting on my lunch half hour, and made an error. So, do you think it is fair that proportionally, citizens of North Dakota have a greater say in who the next president of the United States should be than the citizens of California? How about Wyoming, with a population 579,315? That comes out to about 193,000 citizens per electoral vote.

    I also do not think it fair that for most states, all electoral votes go to the candidate who got the majority of votes. Do you?
  2. by   chare
    Quote from nursej22
    I stand corrected. I was posting on my lunch half hour, and made an error. So, do you think it is fair that proportionally, citizens of North Dakota have a greater say in who the next president of the United States should be than the citizens of California? How about Wyoming, with a population 579,315? That comes out to about 193,000 citizens per electoral vote.
    [...]
    I'm not going to debate the merits, or lack thereof, of the electoral college system. As both of us seem to believe strongly in our opinion, I doubt either of us will be able to sway the other's opinion.
    Quote from nursej22
    [...]
    I also do not think it fair that for most states, all electoral votes go to the candidate who got the majority of votes. Do you?
    I think that we agree on this point. I think the method used by Maine and Nebraska in which the winner of the congressional district is awarded one delegate for each district won, and the overall winner of the state popular vote is awarded the two delegates corresponding to the two senators is much more representative way to award delegates. Whether or not it's fair is another issue, one which I doubt will be solved regardless of the method used to award delegates. Especially when you consider that Mr. Trump won the popular vote in 230 congressional districts compared with Ms. Clinton's 205.

    Of the various options I've read about, I think moving to the proportional assignment of delegates has the better chance of being implemented as this is entirely a decision left to the state. Of the other two options I most frequently hear or read about, either a state awarding all of their delegates to the winner of the popular vote or eliminating the electoral college outright, I don't see either of these coming to fruition.
  3. by   nursej22
    Quote from chare
    I'm not going to debate the merits, or lack thereof, of the electoral college system. As both of us seem to believe strongly in our opinion, I doubt either of us will be able to sway the other's opinion.
    It was a simple yes or no question.
  4. by   chare
    Quote from nursej22
    It was a simple yes or no question.
    Then yes, I think it's fair.
  5. by   toomuchbaloney
    The last two Republican presidents lost the popular vote. Of course conservatives want to preserve the mechanism that allows that misrepresentation of We The People.
  6. by   Ted
    Quote from chare
    Then yes, I think it's fair.
    I've been advocating the abolishment of the Electoral College for Years! (Decades!) It doesn't make sense to continue it in the 21st Century. Quite frankly, the reasons held by our "Founding Fathers" in creating the Electoral College are questionable, at least by today's values and standards.

    We have vastly different ideas to what constitutes "Fair". (And, it seems that we hold vastly different political values.)
    Last edit by Ted on Oct 21
  7. by   chare
    Quote from Ted
    I've been advocating the abolishment of the Electoral College for Years! (Decades!) It doesn't make sense to continue it in the 21st Century. Quite frankly, the reasons held by our "Found Fathers" in creating the Electoral College are questionable, at least by today's values and standards.
    [...]
    What mechanism do you think we should use?

    Proportional assignment of delegates? In my opinion, this would most "fair" as it would better represent the voters of the individual districts. I suspect that many on the left would not support this as Mr. Trump would still have won.

    Abolish the electoral college and provide for the direct election of the president? I doubt this will ever happen. First, I think it highly unlikely that either party could muster 68 votes in the Senate and 288 votes in the House. If, by some means they were able to do so, I seriously doubt 38 states would ratify it in time. The thing to remember, and it's been mentioned by at least one other member here, is that both Ms. Clinton and Mr. Trump would have implemented a very different strategy if the goal was popular vote. While it's possible that Ms. Clinton could have won the popular vote under this process it's just as possible that Mr. Trump could have as well.

    The National Popular Vote Interstate Compact? How would this be "fairer" than the current system?

    Which of the reasons "held by our "Found Fathers" in creating the Electoral College" do you find questionable? And why
    Quote from Ted
    [...]
    We have vastly different ideas to what constitutes "Fair". (And, it seems that we hold vastly different political values.)
    How exactly is the electoral college not fair? And what, in your opinion would be fair?

    And, as you've mentioned my values, what exactly are you trying to say? And more importantly, who are you to presume that you have any idea what my values are
  8. by   Ted
    Chare - The issues regarding abolishing the Electoral College have been discussed here before. . . ad nauseum. Please take the time and energy to go back and read them.

    As for differing values. . . I deliberately and specifically wrote "political values". If you support the GOP, which over the years your past posts have shown that you do, your Political Values have been exposed. Now take a look at the current policies supported and enacted by the GOP. Do you still support those policies? If so, then, again, your Political Values continue to be exposed.
    Last edit by Ted on Oct 21
  9. by   Lil Nel
    Quote from Ted
    Chare - The issues regarding abolishing the Electoral College have been discussed before. . ad nasueum. Please take the time and energy to go back and read them.

    As for differing values. . . I deliberately and specifically wrote "political values". If support the GOP, which over the years your past posts have shown that you do, your Political Values have been exposed. Now take a look at the current policies supported and enacted by the GOP. Do you still support those policies? If so, then, again, your Political Values continue to be exposed.
    Definitely agree with Ted, Chare, regarding the latter half of his statement.

    I always read your posts because as one of the few conservatives posting here, you are the only one who makes logical, reasonable sense.

    Therefore, we are aware of many, but perhaps not all, of your political values.

    To imply anything less, is disingenuous, and I know you are better than that.
  10. by   Lil Nel
    Here's the latest example of incivility by a White Nationist group towards a Democrat.

    From the NY Post

    Nancy Pelosi Cursed Out By Protesters In FL

    Members of the group, Proud Boys, dropped the f-bomb repeatedly, while following her.

    Seems like Huckabee Sanders was lucky to be asked to leave a restaurant. She could have be harassed by White Nationalists.

    Oh, wait, that wouldn't happen to her! Her boss defends these deplorables!!!!!

    Good people on both sides, says Trump.

    Right.

    Cue Fleetwood Mac: Tell Me Lies, Tell Me Sweet Little Lies.

    Update: Fox News, is reporting that the protest was organized by Nelson Diaz, Chair of the Republican Party in Miami-Dade County.

    They are basing their report on story in Washington Post.

    Again, no way would Republicans organize an angry mob that consists of White Nationalists!
    Last edit by Lil Nel on Oct 20 : Reason: Update
  11. by   herring_RN
    Quote from macawake
    Yes, you have to show your ID when you vote. Everyone has at least one ID card (whether it's a passport, driver's license or one issued by a bank or by an employer). You can't really function in society without one and you couldn't travel abroad. In the unlikely event you've lost your ID card right before election date, another person with a valid ID card can vouch for your identity at the polls.

    Apart from an ID card you also bring your voter registration card to the polling station. It's automatically mailed to you about a month prior to the election (you don't have to do anything for this to happen). And it always works. Always. We have quite an efficient bureaucracy going...

    Citizens can vote in all four elections; one national, two local and the EU election. An EU citizen residing here is eligible to vote (from the first day of residence) in the EU election and the two local elections but not the national (parliament) election. A non-EU citizen living here is allowed to vote in the two local elections after they've resided here for three years.

    Oh, and it's one person = one vote. They are all worth EXACTLY the same.

    Yeah, I wasn't suggesting that urinating on busts is a winning strategy. If you read my posts that wasn't at all what I was referring to when I said that always taking the high road when the other side rides roughshod over you, is a losing strategy.

    The passive doormat reaction I'm seeing from many politicians opposed to Trump is not going to win them elections. You literally have a situation where a minority are PERMITTED to walk all over the majority.

    Thanks to your system of electoral votes you have a President who has the support of less than half of the people who voted.

    California with a population of 39,536,653 get two Senators, as does Wyoming with a population of 579,315.

    List of states and territories of the United States by population - Wikipedia

    (One Congressman from California represents 702,885 residents and one from Wyoming 563,767).

    When Judge Kavanuagh was confirmed, that Senators who voted "aye" represented FAR LESS than half the population. I think I saw somewhere that the numbers are roughly 140 million (aye) vs 180 million (nay). You have a court that's far more conservative than the average American. Does it really represent you?

    Why doesn't this strike y'all as unjust?

    If this was my country, I wouldn't be happy.

    Not only is the playing field uneven from the get-go where rural sparsely populated states are granted disproportionate power, but it's further skewed by the fact that some states appear to allow the disgusting practice of systematically suppressing black and other minority votes.

    Back to bust desecration.... I don't think that Eric Holder had peeing on busts in mind either...

    He clearly said when I say we kick them, --> I don't mean we do anything inappropriate, we don't do anything illegal.

    Regarding this thread. A person is being 100% disingenuous if they try to make it sound like he was advocating violence. I have nothing but contempt for this Trumpster stategy of trying to misrepresent (mening LIE about) reality.


    Personally I find the memes asinine. I swear, the mere act of seeing them, probably kills off a non-neglible amount of brain cells....

    However... I'm convinced they helped Trump win the 2016 election. Trump supporters seem to respond well to them. We certainly didn't see any of our regular Trump supporting posters here condemn for example the ridiculous and distasteful memes depicting Hillary Clinton with fake syphilitic lesions, that were posted here by other Trump aficionados during the 2016 campaign.

    The other side plays dirty.

    So do you go the snob route and refuse to use them and leave them to the less scrupulous Trump folks... or...

    I'm on the fence.
    I am not a snob, but I won't curse and call names.
    I will counter lies with truth.
    I will listen to people who disagree with me IF they are willing to have a civil conversation. Sometimes a person changes their own mind when questioned about their ridiculous belief in falsehoods.

    I worked nights in 2005 when WE were on call to any public appearance by Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger after he tried to eliminate our ratio law was passed and signed into law by his predecessor. Sometimes I got up, put on scrubs, protested, and came home to go back to sleep.

    We followed him shouting "SHAME ON YOU, ARNOLD!" until he went inside.
    At first we were just a handful.
    Then police, highway patrol (CHIPS), firefighters, and sheriffs joined us after he went after compensation for the children of public servants killed on duty.
    Then he tried to increase class size, lay off school personnel, and cut their pensions.

    Once we were having a CE class when our phones vibrated. Arnold was going to speak at an event. Almost the entire class went there at lunchtime just before he got there so we shouted, "Shame of You" while some explained our opinions to the press. One Korean American RN spoke about safe staffing to a Korean language newspaper.

    We had been told Arnold was too popular. That we were fools to challenge him. But OUR safe staffing law was to important to let that ONE IGNORANT SHOWMAN illegally eliminate the law with an executive order.
    We were plenty angry, but did not curse, threaten violence, or lie.
    What we did was save our ratios and help teachers, school employees, firefighters, an law enforcement officers.

    NURSES were brave and committed enough and set an example so others joined us.
    Schwarzenegger Abandons Court Fight Against Nurses



    He called us SPECIAL INTERESTS
    <strong><font size="4">

    Last edit by herring_RN on Oct 20
  12. by   Lil Nel
    Quote from herring_RN
    I am not a snob, but I won't curse and call names.
    I will counter lies with truth.
    I will listen to people who disagree with me IF they are willing to have a civil conversation. Sometimes a person changes their own mind when questioned about their ridiculous belief in falsehoods.

    I worked nights in 2005 when WE were on call to any public appearance by Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger after he tried to eliminate our ratio law was passed and signed into law by his predecessor. Sometimes I got up, put on scrubs, protested, and came home to go back to sleep.

    We followed him shouting "SHAME ON YOU, ARNOLD!" until he went inside.
    At first we were just a handful.
    Then police, highway patrol (CHIPS), firefighters, and sheriffs joined us after he went after compensation for the children of public servants killed on duty.
    Then he tried to increase class size, lay off school personnel, and cut their pensions.

    Once we were having a CE class when our phones vibrated. Arnold was going to speak at an event. Almost the entire class went there at lunchtime just before he got there so we shouted, "Shame of You" while some explained our opinions to the press. One Korean American RN spoke about safe staffing to a Korean language newspaper.

    We had been told Arnold was too popular. That we were fools to challenge him. But OUR safe staffing law was to important to let that ONE IGNORANT SHOWMAN illegally eliminate the law with an executive order.
    We were plenty angry, but did not curse, threaten violence, or lie.
    What we did was save our ratios and help teachers, school employees, firefighters, an law enforcement officers.

    NURSES were brave and committed enough and set an example so others joined us.



    He called us SPECIAL INTERESTS
    <strong><font size="4">

    Yes, the nurses were brave, herring.

    But Arnold also wasn't calling nurses displaying nicknames, was he?

    It is much easier to be civil, when you are dealing with civil.

    Unfortunately, those days are long gone.

    Just this week, Trump joked about the physical assault of a journalist in Montana, by a Montana politician.

    The journalist was from the BBC.

    Maybe you remember the incident.

    Is that something the occupant of the WH should joke about, or encourage others to joke about?

    Trump is completely uncivilized, and his supporters love him for it.
  13. by   herring_RN
    Quote from nursej22
    The current resident of the White House has called for violence multiple times. And the main reaction from his supporters is ho hum. But let a democrat who just happens to be a person of color hint that progressives should stop being so passive, well, OMG, get the rope!

    FACT CHECK: Did Donald Trump Encourage Violence at His Rallies?
    I won't encourage, participate, or stand by and allow violence without trying to stop it OR calling 911 BUT after calling others an angry mob and an elected Republican said that Democrats are being violent in the run-up to the elections.
    "Greg is smart, and by the way, never wrestle him," Trump said, to laughter from the crowd. "Any guy that can do a body slam, he's my kind of," he added. The president then mimicked a wrestling move, said, "He's my guy," and applauded in Gianforte's direction as his audience cheered.

    Trump went on to describe how, while in Rome for a state visit, he "heard that [Gianforte] body slammed a reporter" -- as he said this, Trump pointed at the journalists covering his speech, while the crowd roared. The president explained that his immediate reaction to the report that a U.S. politician had assaulted a member of the press was "this is terrible, he's going to lose the election," before concluding that in Montana, "it might help him, and it did."

    The president had hinted that he supported Gianforte's attack on a journalist at a rally in September. But these latest remarks cross a new threshold in the president's rhetoric against the press, with Trump explicitly encouraging violence against journalists...

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