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Questioning Elizabeth Warren

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On 10/29/2019 at 6:59 AM, MoondoggieRN said:

How does taking more from the wealthy change this trend?

The wealth tax would be directed toward education, to create a more educated workforce and to allow young adults to start careers without $100,000 or more in debt. We can't just import highly educated workers from Norway, the way the president has proposed. 

I am not really aware of what the wealthy spend money on, but if they had to wait a year to buy a new Ferrari, or ski on last year's equipment, I'm okay with that. 

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2 hours ago, nursej22 said:

The wealth tax would be directed toward education, to create a more educated workforce and to allow young adults to start careers without $100,000 or more in debt. We can't just import highly educated workers from Norway, the way the president has proposed. 

I am not really aware of what the wealthy spend money on, but if they had to wait a year to buy a new Ferrari, or ski on last year's equipment, I'm okay with that. 

That is ignoring the actual problem.  Why does a college degree cost $100,000 in the first place?

Govt subsidies in the form of loans and grants over the last 20 to 30 years has directly contributed to the skyrocketing costs of college.  What you are saying Warren is proposing doesn't fix that.  If anything it exacerbates the problem. 

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On 10/30/2019 at 10:19 AM, MoondoggieRN said:

That is ignoring the actual problem.  Why does a college degree cost $100,000 in the first place?

Govt subsidies in the form of loans and grants over the last 20 to 30 years has directly contributed to the skyrocketing costs of college.  What you are saying Warren is proposing doesn't fix that.  If anything it exacerbates the problem. 

Interesting point. Do you have anything to back that up? Grants and loans were around in 1985 when I went to school, and costs were much lower then. I got a small grant and a small loan that I used to pay for childcare, and had it paid off in a year. 

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54 minutes ago, nursej22 said:

Interesting point. Do you have anything to back that up? Grants and loans were around in 1985 when I went to school, and costs were much lower then. I got a small grant and a small loan that I used to pay for childcare, and had it paid off in a year. 

I graduated with my first bachelor degree in the early 90's, with zero debt.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/08/03/increased-tuition-subsidies-increase-the-price-of-college-tuition/#3b35901a45a2

https://www.forbes.com/sites/prestoncooper2/2017/02/22/how-unlimited-student-loans-drive-up-tuition/

https://www.jamesgmartin.center/2019/03/dc-wants-to-further-subsidize-higher-education-heres-why-thats-a-bad-idea/

https://www.downsizinggovernment.org/education/higher-education-subsidies

Edited by MoondoggieRN

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6 hours ago, nursej22 said:

Interesting point. Do you have anything to back that up? Grants and loans were around in 1985 when I went to school, and costs were much lower then. I got a small grant and a small loan that I used to pay for childcare, and had it paid off in a year. 

Don't you remember we've already been this route before with SCDude saying the exact same thing that we should examine why education is so expensive in the first place and much of the blame and timeline can be placed on government hand outs.  

I think it was during the time Obama wanted to help with Community College Education.  I really wanted that idea to go through.  It's a great starting point.  But McConnell said we couldn't afford the 10 billion a year cost.  I don't know how he said that with a straight face.

We went back and forth and I'm not quite in the mood again.  I think while that my be a factor it's a bit more complicated than that.  

Regardless, the fact is we let a generation down.  Millennials are the most educated generation of all time, but they did it at a huge cost and money that could be spent by them stimulating the economy is going to big banks.

I'm not saying free education should be supplied to everyone, everywhere.  There should be limits, and certainly why costs are so high should be looked into and controlled when we can.  But we can't let the next generation down like this.  

 

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44 minutes ago, Tweety said:

Don't you remember we've already been this route before with SCDude saying the exact same thing that we should examine why education is so expensive in the first place and much of the blame and timeline can be placed on government hand outs.  

I think it was during the time Obama wanted to help with Community College Education.  I really wanted that idea to go through.  It's a great starting point.  But McConnell said we couldn't afford the 10 billion a year cost.  I don't know how he said that with a straight face.

We went back and forth and I'm not quite in the mood again.  I think while that my be a factor it's a bit more complicated than that.  

Regardless, the fact is we let a generation down.  Millennials are the most educated generation of all time, but they did it at a huge cost and money that could be spent by them stimulating the economy is going to big banks.

I'm not saying free education should be supplied to everyone, everywhere.  There should be limits, and certainly why costs are so high should be looked into and controlled when we can.  But we can't let the next generation down like this.  

 

Agreed.

Nothing is free.  Many of us concur that investing in the health and education of the citizens is at least as valuable as investing in the military. 

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12 hours ago, Tweety said:

Don't you remember we've already been this route before with SCDude saying the exact same thing that we should examine why education is so expensive in the first place and much of the blame and timeline can be placed on government hand outs.  

Frankly, I don't remember that. Have the Republicans, who had control of the House for 6 years of Obama's term, and 2 of Trump's done anything to reduce government handouts to higher education? Or, have there been any executive orders to that effect? I know the conservative press likes to rail against colleges because the students don't want people like Coulter and Shapiro speaking there but have they called for cuts? Perhaps I missed that too. 

But yes, college is ridiculously expensive and if lower and middle income people can't attend that just creates more economic imbalance. 

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1 hour ago, nursej22 said:

Frankly, I don't remember that. Have the Republicans, who had control of the House for 6 years of Obama's term, and 2 of Trump's done anything to reduce government handouts to higher education? Or, have there been any executive orders to that effect? I know the conservative press likes to rail against colleges because the students don't want people like Coulter and Shapiro speaking there but have they called for cuts? Perhaps I missed that too. 

But yes, college is ridiculously expensive and if lower and middle income people can't attend that just creates more economic imbalance. 

I remember it clearly.  Exactly the same argument "instead of giving free education, look at why it's so high, and it can be traced to handouts."  Paraphrasing but the exact same idea.  Not sure what the context was.

Trump's budget, not sure if it pass proposed 200 billion in cuts to students, which I'm sure would drive the cost of tuition down (sarcasm).

Actually during the great recession as spending on the state level was strained cuts were introduced and the costs of tuition were driven up as a result.  Plenty of schools reduced costs and services as well, but overall the trend is still higher.

Hopefully with better budgets this might change.  It's a sad situation for today's students.  I was always able to pay for all of my education myself through my ADN and some pre-request for my BSN.  By the time I got around to my BSN it was 2007 and tuition was high, I decided to get a loan of $10,000 and it paid tuition and books and nothing else.  Still pretty cheap.   Thanks to Florida raising the cost of nursing licenses they used those funds for tuition reimbursement if you work in not for profit areas and I paid $2,000 and had $8,000 forgiven.  It's awesome to not be in debt and I feel for kids these days.  Not the one's that attend big schools, get massive loans for "living expenses" and vacation in Cancun.  But middle class kids getting in such debt to just better themselves.  

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/education-postsecondary/news/2018/02/14/446660/trumps-budget-proposes-200-billion-cuts-students/

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15 hours ago, Tweety said:

We went back and forth and I'm not quite in the mood again.  I think while that my be a factor it's a bit more complicated than that.  

You say it "may be a factor".   Care to say how the four articles I posted are wrong?  Or have some source that disputes them?

I understand if you don't want to go down that road again, so no worries if you don't.  Just to say "it may be a factor" seems odd when you dont have much of any other explanation of how costs have skyrocketed.

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3 hours ago, nursej22 said:

Frankly, I don't remember that. Have the Republicans, who had control of the House for 6 years of Obama's term, and 2 of Trump's done anything to reduce government handouts to higher education? 

No, they havent.  

What is your point as it relates to our discussion of Warren's plan?

 

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44 minutes ago, MoondoggieRN said:

No, they havent.  

What is your point as it relates to our discussion of Warren's plan?

 

I suppose Warren's plan for free college is probably unrealistic. Especially if costs continue to rise so that only the wealthy can afford higher ed. 

What do you think about funding pre-K and improving K-12 and making it equitable? 

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3 hours ago, MoondoggieRN said:

You say it "may be a factor".   Care to say how the four articles I posted are wrong?  Or have some source that disputes them?

I understand if you don't want to go down that road again, so no worries if you don't.  Just to say "it may be a factor" seems odd when you dont have much of any other explanation of how costs have skyrocketed.

No I don't because there was a discussion I've already participated in and if you read I said I'm not in the mood to discuss it again.  

I do realize it's a fresh discussion given her plan for education and I do apologize for butting in the first place, but butting out now. 

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