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Presidential Election 2020

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13 hours ago, Tweety said:

 

The question of the day is who will those moderate or independent voters vote for?  If you think Trump, that might be a mistake.  

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-democrats-can-win-2020-without-gop-and-swing-voters-2019-7

 

13 hours ago, Tweety said:

 

The question of the day is who will those moderate or independent voters vote for?  If you think Trump, that might be a mistake.  

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-democrats-can-win-2020-without-gop-and-swing-voters-2019-7

I would agree that those who didn’t vote last time could work against Trump this time.  However, if the election were today, I don’t see them coming out to vote against a strong economy vs far leftist policies.

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On 7/10/2019 at 8:35 PM, SC_RNDude said:

No one is disputing conditions are far less then ideal.  However, inhumane, concentration camp, torture, etc.... no.

This discussion started with a poster claiming these conditions are intentional by Trump.  The report that keeps being referenced obviously does not support that idea.

I would agree that given the wide range of situations these terms could include, it's important to clarify when on the spectrum these conditions fall, but a "concentration camp" is a facility that hold a particular subgroup of people, usually in overcrowded conditions, which would appear to qualify to these detention centers. Whether it's "inhumane" could be described as whether these facilities exceed the number of detainees they were designed to hold humanely, they currently hold many times what they were designed to.  As for "torture", Trump has admitted they are pursuing the criminal rather than civil prosecution process specifically because it gives them cause to separate children from their parents, I would say that could fall under the broad definition of "torture".

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22 hours ago, SC_RNDude said:

Another one, no Shapiro or me, who believes the Democrats are out of touch with most Americans.

“The entertainment executive also suggested Democrats will lose their ability to appeal to moderate or independent voters by embracing far-left policies in the primary. The first Democratic debates saw candidates embrace once-extreme positions including decriminalizing border crossings, unlimited access to abortion, and abolishing private insurance in favor of government-run healthcare.”

https://freebeacon.com/politics/bet-founder-democratic-party-has-moved-too-far-left/

This has been the theme of far right fringe, to try and convince people that the minority is the majority, and that the majority of people don't represent the majority of people.

Universal health care is not a "far-left" policy, it's supported by the majority of Americans, including candidate Trump.  All Republican presidents of recent history pursued civil prosecution of border crossings, and the majority of Americans support the current role of abortion.

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1 hour ago, SC_RNDude said:

It seems it wasn’t inhumane when the last president kept “kids in cages”.

“This week, the Democrat House Oversight and Reform Committee tweeted out an announcement of a hearing on "Kids in Cages: Inhumane Treatment on the Border" which included a photograph showing rows of immigrant children lying under tinfoil blankets inside fenced detainment cells.”

https://www.dailywire.com/news/49379/trump-trolls-democrats-after-they-post-problematic-james-barrett?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=benshapiro

 

Gee, apparently you would rather talk about anything rather than this intentional and cruel Trump policy. It's unfortunate that so many seem eager to be misled by a liar who apparently believes that intentional cruelty is a sign of strength. Maybe you could link to the OIG or UN assessments which demonstrate that the Obama failures in this area come any where close to the intentional inhumane treatment observed during Trump's administration. Or maybe you can't.  

 

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1 hour ago, SC_RNDude said:

 

I would agree that those who didn’t vote last time could work against Trump this time.  However, if the election were today, I don’t see them coming out to vote against a strong economy vs far leftist policies.

You're presuming that someone with "far leftist policies" is going to win the nomination for President.    Also you presume a vote for Trump is a vote against a strong economy.  Many moderates remember we had a strong economy under Clinton and Obama and how it crashed under Bush and understand that they can still vote Democrat and have a strong economy.

Now if someone like Sanders that is indeed not a democrat but a far leftist candidate wins the nomination people will have to decide how his high tax plan and other policies will hurt the economy verses Trump.

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10 minutes ago, MunoRN said:

I would agree that given the wide range of situations these terms could include, it's important to clarify when on the spectrum these conditions fall, but a "concentration camp" is a facility that hold a particular subgroup of people, usually in overcrowded conditions, which would appear to qualify to these detention centers. Whether it's "inhumane" could be described as whether these facilities exceed the number of detainees they were designed to hold humanely, they currently hold many times what they were designed to.  As for "torture", Trump has admitted they are pursuing the criminal rather than civil prosecution process specifically because it gives them cause to separate children from their parents, I would say that could fall under the broad definition of "torture".

Further, the testimony and observation include that sleep deprivation, constant cold, and hunger are also employed in the dehumanization, all tools of torture. 

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2 hours ago, SC_RNDude said:

It seems it wasn’t inhumane when the last president kept “kids in cages”.

“This week, the Democrat House Oversight and Reform Committee tweeted out an announcement of a hearing on "Kids in Cages: Inhumane Treatment on the Border" which included a photograph showing rows of immigrant children lying under tinfoil blankets inside fenced detainment cells.”

https://www.dailywire.com/news/49379/trump-trolls-democrats-after-they-post-problematic-james-barrett?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=benshapiro

 

You and the article you're posting is resurrecting a story that came out in 2018 over a year ago.  I don't remember much about it the 2014 story the original photo came from but I do believe there was criticism of how the children were treated then.  I've mentioned before Obama's immigration stance was criticized and protested in the streets many times.

I will say that using an old photo to make it look like it was Trump's issue was wrong.  But again, it's news from 2018.  Trump blamed Democrats for how children were treated, doesn't seem like other than that he's taken a stance to make things better for them.  

Edited by Tweety

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39 minutes ago, MunoRN said:

I would agree that given the wide range of situations these terms could include, it's important to clarify when on the spectrum these conditions fall, but a "concentration camp" is a facility that hold a particular subgroup of people, usually in overcrowded conditions, which would appear to qualify to these detention centers. Whether it's "inhumane" could be described as whether these facilities exceed the number of detainees they were designed to hold humanely, they currently hold many times what they were designed to.  As for "torture", Trump has admitted they are pursuing the criminal rather than civil prosecution process specifically because it gives them cause to separate children from their parents, I would say that could fall under the broad definition of "torture".

Google’s definition of concentration camp:

  1. a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution. The term is most strongly associated with the several hundred camps established by the Nazis in Germany and occupied Europe in 1933–45, among the most infamous being Dachau, Belsen, and Auschwitz.”
     
     
     
    And that’s the connotation that is intended. Same ole game plan.  Demonize the other side.  Otherwise, why not just stick to “detention center”.

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7 hours ago, SC_RNDude said:

Google’s definition of concentration camp:

  1. a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution. The term is most strongly associated with the several hundred camps established by the Nazis in Germany and occupied Europe in 1933–45, among the most infamous being Dachau, Belsen, and Auschwitz.”
     
     
     
    And that’s the connotation that is intended. Same ole game plan.  Demonize the other side.  Otherwise, why not just stick to “detention center”.

Why not use concentration camp as they clearly fit the definition and were instituted by a man who routinely uses dehumanizing and slanderous language to describe the victims? Is the only reason not to use that terminology because it makes us feel uncomfortable with the idea that we are concentrating people according to their ethnicity when they come to our southern border? Or because the conditions in the camps are inhumane with some techniques of torture utilized  (sleep deprivation, hunger, cold, bright lights 24/7)? Why can't we use that language? 

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I think like Obama times in 2014 when we were overwhelmed with children and not enough facilities (although when they were attempted to be relocated they were met with massive protests and their buses were stopped by locals who didn't want them) and today when the border is overwhelmed we're trying to do the best that we can. 

It's not like we went to Latin America and kidnapped them and put them in concentration camps.  

Perhaps we can do better but I don't like the concentration camp reference either.   

I do think the administration and a good deal of the public doesn't want them comfortable.  If we treated them like guests in a hotel that wouldn't go over well.  

Edited by Tweety

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6 hours ago, Tweety said:

I think like Obama times in 2014 when we were overwhelmed with children and not enough facilities (although when they were attempted to be relocated they were met with massive protests and their buses were stopped by locals who didn't want them) and today when the border is overwhelmed we're trying to do the best that we can. 

It's not like we went to Latin America and kidnapped them and put them in concentration camps.  

Perhaps we can do better but I don't like the concentration camp reference either.   

I do think the administration and a good deal of the public doesn't want them comfortable.  If we treated them like guests in a hotel that wouldn't go over well.  

There's a huge difference between choosing to detain every man woman and child in deplorable overcrowded and intentionally cruel conditions and keeping them in hotels although hotels might cost us less money and they would likely follow maximum occupant guidance and have actual cots or sleeping areas.

I don't like knowing that Trump is engaged in treating people badly in these camps either. I don't the verification that this is the low level of behavior and treatment that will be actively defended by my neighbors and the leadership.  Is there some requirement that the victims be kidnapped rather than simply rounded up by authorities, uniformed men? Maybe if enough people are upset by use of the word they will begin to get upset by the actual mistreatment and unacceptably cruel conditions too. Maybe these camps should appear less like concentration camps, maybe there should appear to be solid, well thought out plans for moving these people out of the camps in a timely manner, maybe there should be evidence of excellent recordkeeping and valant attempts to return children to family members within 72 hours. 

Maybe some of those thing will change before many more people and children are abused if we point out all of the ways the American people are sponsoring concentration camp experiences for the indigenous people traveling to our southern border.

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23 hours ago, SC_RNDude said:

Google’s definition of concentration camp:

  1. a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution. The term is most strongly associated with the several hundred camps established by the Nazis in Germany and occupied Europe in 1933–45, among the most infamous being Dachau, Belsen, and Auschwitz.”
     
     
     
    And that’s the connotation that is intended. Same ole game plan.  Demonize the other side.  Otherwise, why not just stick to “detention center”.

I think it's because "detention center" is legally defined by certain criteria; detainees per square footage for instance, a number of these centers no longer fit into that criteria but now do more closely fit into the definition of "concentration camp" you provided above.  People are being held in what the DHS OIG describes as "a relatively small area with inadequate facilities" and for the admitted purpose of persecuting a minority.

I don't disagree there's an argument to be made for holding those who have crossed the border illegally until they can be legally processed rather than releasing them and hoping they will return, but to do so without any sort of planning for the expected sharp increase in detainees is either negligence or a deliberate attempt to treat a group of people inhumanely.

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