Rape and how we see Rape - page 2
Almost a year ago, a freshman state representative in Wisconsin named Roger Rivard (a Republican, if you can bring yourself to believe it), told the Chetek Alert newspaper something that raised a not... Read More
Nov 25, '12Occupation: retired From: US ; Joined: Jun '08; Posts: 7,997; Likes: 23,032Quote from BostonTerrierLoverRNActually, BTL, I think your input is extremely heavy and important. In reality it will take all of us being willing to confront the issue. For years rape was accepted as the "spoils of war." Interesting term, isn't it. Male warriors seemed to think raping was a necessary part of raiding and taking over another country.No means No, and Stop means Stop, any activity after that is beyond the law that should protect females.
I know I am a male, and my input isn't as heavy as a female's on this subject, but please know most men think of rapists with the same disgust and objection, as is directed to a child predator.
It makes us (men) sick that predators are absent of the protection instinct that 'real' men have for perceived vulnerable humans.
From an evolutionary and sociological POV it makes sense to do this. I am not condoning it, just acknowledging some of the background. it seems that some men have not evolved beyond the spoils of war attitude, and see the power and control as a good thing, I guess.
That is one thing that has amazed me with the recent discussion by men in the GOP was that rape was viewed as just sex. In reality it has little to do with sex and a great deal to do with power and control. It is part of the insecurity that warriors had when they conquered an area. They were always concerned the territory could be taken.
When men are excused for "male needs" following a quake or a win or a lose in sports it is a complete disrespect of women. That is one reason the discussion this past summer was so hurtful to women. Leaders of our country, in the form of Senators, were giving tacit approval and in reality, actual approval of rape. Hurting women, forcing women to comply with unwanted sex was verbalized as acceptable. Joking comments of Aspirin as a contraceptive, mysterious fluids, etc. are all part of that approval of unacceptable behaviors.
I do hope that every man steps up as BTL, Davey, and Bushambo have done. Every common sense comment has to be made by men to support women, but in reality probably more important, to clear the way for real penalties for the men who rape. Real justice where the woman is not on trial. Real follow through where a pregnancy resulting from rape does not give the rapist access to the child and allowing women to make their own decisions about the morning after pill or forms of termination, if they choose.
It is so good to read the comments from the men here. Anyone who has suffered rape understands that without the male as well as female support of the victim she will never get to be a survivor.
BTL, Thank you for sharing your story. You made a huge sacrifice in terms of education. I hope you will be able to get the certification in the future.
Nov 25, '12Occupation: Travel Nursing/ER/Trauma Specialty: 10 year(s) of experience in Adult/Ped Emergency and Trauma ; From: US ; Joined: Oct '11; Posts: 1,263; Likes: 3,901That read like a Doctoral Thesis or CNN piece, and as long as there are women with your strength, approach, and courage to shine light where the masses don't want to look- it must be addressed! Thanks for an informative and enlightened thread, and for reminding us this has to be addressed.
As long as acts of brutality that cripple spirits are condoned in ANY way, more work is needed- and to have to direct that education to Senators, Physicians, and Judges shows the urgency.
Thanks Aknottedyarn for your acceptance of a man's opinion in a very sensitive issue. I learned something much more important in Haiti than the lesson I went for. There is a crisis going on for women everywhere at many levels. Beyond the horrid act, we make women victims again when we allow the Senators, and others with the power to make changes to get away with their obscene stance. I learned we need a cultural discussion on this.
I will leave you all with this thought, if an 18 year old boy gets drunk, has sex, and it is aired; Society says "He was being a boy." That same girl is called a "whore" for doing the same? We have a long way to go.Last edit by BostonTerrierLoverRN on Nov 25, '12
Nov 26, '12Joined: Nov '06; Posts: 20,715; Likes: 23,954A cyber-friend of mine who lives in Port-au-Prince posted this link on her blog. She is studying midwifery and deals with this sort of thing every day in the prenatal program where she works.
A text message was the first sign that something was wrong: "Nou genyen yon pwoblem" ("We have a problem"). A flurry of phone calls and emails ensued. In the week after Hurricane Sandy hit Haiti, our research team was south of the capital, Port-au-Prince, assessing the state of post-disaster crime and service provision in the wake of hurricane Sandy. The SMS was from a member of our team, an enthusiastic and bright graduate student we'll call "Wendy." It turns out that she was walking alone a few blocks from our hotel when she was accosted, forced into a house, and brutally raped.The first priority was to ensure Wendy received medical attention. A doctor was tracked down but he refused to examine Wendy saying she needed to be seen by the authorities first. The police were contacted and after a grueling interview in which one repeatedly asked Wendy, "What did you do to make him violate you?" the officers said she was free to be seen by the doctor. The doctor, however, could not be located and did not respond to cell phone calls and texts. Police wryly suggested that he likely wished to avoid getting involved.
Haitian law requires rape victims to be examined within the first 70 hours by a doctor in order to "certify" the event occurred. This step is necessary in order to prosecute the perpetrator, though few victims are able or willing to satisfy this requirement. The reasons for which quickly became apparent. Police referred Wendy to a public clinic in the nearest town, a three-hour drive over roads washed out by the hurricane. When Wendy arrived she was told the doctor assigned to the clinic was out. No one knew when he would return and he had not been seen in weeks. A nurse mentioned that the doctor might be working at the private clinic he ran near his home.
It was now more than 16 hours since the attack. Wendy had neither slept nor bathed since we told her that the doctor would need to retrieve samples of the fluids left by the perpetrator. Her clothes were ripped and dirty. Dried blood matted her hair where the rapist had slammed her head against a cinder-block wall during the assault. And while it turned out that the doctor was at home, he nevertheless wanted verification from the police that a sexual assault complaint had been filed before he conducted an examination. The police were called but they claimed a "fee" was required before they would release a copy of the complaint to the doctor.
Nov 26, '12Joined: Nov '06; Posts: 20,715; Likes: 23,954Until certain sectors of society get past the rape-about-sex and woman-as-temptress mindset, I don't think things are going to change very much. Unfortunately. Again....stamp a big bright 'A' on the victim and let the perpetrator go on with life.
Nov 26, '12Occupation: retired From: US ; Joined: Jun '08; Posts: 7,997; Likes: 23,032Quote from ElvishThis is probably the greatest hurdle for all of us. As long as those in power and trusted with our futures, elected Congress, POTUS, VPOTUS, and all local officials, continue to be possibly elected in spite of their very vocal acceptance of rape we will see no change.Until certain sectors of society get past the rape-about-sex and woman-as-temptress mindset, I don't think things are going to change very much. Unfortunately. Again....stamp a big bright 'A' on the victim and let the perpetrator go on with life.
In the last presidential election women voted Obama in. I think the issues of women being seen as sex vessels, even in the cases of rape, had an impact. The unwillingness to call out those Senators and Representatives who laughed and said "Some women are easy to rape" or Women have a protective chemical to prevent pregnancy (implying if pregnancy happens she must have wanted the "sex"), encouraging legislation so that rapists can have parental rights as if it were not a felony. A felon loses the right to vote, why would he have the right to the product of his crime? The list of these and other horrible statements by uninformed, repressive, regressive representatives was accepted by the GOP and all their candidates.
I do hope that in the future this issue is brought up to every person wanting to be elected to represent us. If their answers are not in keeping with the rights of women the answers need to be broadcasted to all who could vote for this person. Women will vote if they have issues that effect them. This last election proved this.
Every one who wants to serve in politics needs to be well educated and able to separate their religious views from their positions in a country that has no state religion and has to be responsive to all religions. If they cannot do this they to acknowledge that they would not represent all their constituents and not run or expect to not be elected.
Women do have this power and can use it. We may not be effective trying to work other ways but to deprive a legislator of lobbying funds and public speaking money may make them want to learn how to keep the ability to put more money in their pockets. They may be reluctant to accept women as equals but they may want money more. I wonder how it will play out.
Nov 27, '12Occupation: retired From: US ; Joined: Jun '08; Posts: 7,997; Likes: 23,032Football Star Lawrence Taylor Gets Off Again : Ms. Magazine Blog
The jury in the civil case ruled the sex consensual, even though Fierro was a minor and ignorance of age is not a defense against statutory rape in New York. Beyond meeting the conditions for statutory rape, Fierro says she tried to stop Taylor from having sex with her because it hurt. "I kept telling him I didn't want to be there," she said. "He's much bigger than me. I couldn't do anything." According to Taylor, though, Fierro "didn't seem to have a problem" and "didn't tell me to stop."
Human trafficking expert Dottie Laster wasn't surprised by the verdict. She noted the contradiction between the jury feeling sorry for the victim, but believing a middle-aged man's word over the testimony of a crying teen:
We live in a world where a child is blamed for her own commercial rape-where money excuses everything.
Our silence gives more power to those who abuse children in this way.
Nov 29, '12Occupation: Travel Nursing/ER/Trauma Specialty: 10 year(s) of experience in Adult/Ped Emergency and Trauma ; From: US ; Joined: Oct '11; Posts: 1,263; Likes: 3,901I am so disgusted that we even have the word "Human Traffic" in 2012. What's worse, it's not just Thailand, China, or Russia it's even small town USA. I don't even know how to approach that subject as it involves innocent children subjected to sex trade.
I was disgusted to see a Dateline NBC showing Doctors, Lawyers, and even a CEO arranging a sex trip to Thailand for 8-13 year old boys and girls in homes that specialize in the "trade," and being absolutely helpless to do anything but bring it to the attention of Americans who will say "That's horrible!" And flip the channel and continue their meal.
Nov 29, '12Occupation: retired From: US ; Joined: Jun '08; Posts: 7,997; Likes: 23,032BTL, I agree. That is why I started this thread. We cannot get to the public if we cannot even talk about it here. The subjct of rape is taboo. Sex trade anywhere is taboo. We stil even have a difficult time with routine bodily functions. For many of us the world of sex trade with selling of children is so far away from our reality we can put our blinders on and ignore.
I know this thread will not change the world. I am hoping it will raise awareness in our small community of nurses and make it easier for us to talk about and deal with whe we see it. It is something that will not be seen if you don't look. Probably very often we see rapists, children forced into sex or even "the trade", women who sell their bodies for many reasons. We don't see them because they are nto labeled.
Interestingly when a female reports a rape it becomes easy to label her. Many times the perpatrator will never be found, even if the female does report it. It becomes easy to blame the victim, perhaps, in part, because we do not know the perp.
I read that most of the posters are disgusted and even have problems putting into words how they feel. I hope that more people will contribute and become more able to express themselves in words that can be used. Once that is done it is easier to go more public and be able to work within our communities.
Nov 30, '12Occupation: Travel Nursing/ER/Trauma Specialty: 10 year(s) of experience in Adult/Ped Emergency and Trauma ; From: US ; Joined: Oct '11; Posts: 1,263; Likes: 3,901Your right Aknottedyarn, and every fire starts with a spark. Glad you brought awareness to people who are truly in a position to intervene, who are obligated to report this to authorities, and to help the victim to a sense of "wholeness" again. I wish we had more outreach to help these victims like we have rehabilitation programs for other crisis interventions. I cannot even begin to imagine the long, exhausting, obstacle filled journey to "wholeness," wellness, and peace in their lives again. Victims, I know have something "die" in them that day, and many fail to get anything close to therapy, crisis intervention, or support in coping for something that was never invited, asked for, or deserved.
Watched the movie "Speak" this am, and it reminded me of this thread, and how off target we are as a society to deal with these issues- but as long as there are people like Aknottedyarn, there will be at least someone petitioning for better.
Nov 30, '12National Sexual Assault Hotline
Free confidential counseling 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Nov 30, '12Occupation: retired From: US ; Joined: Jun '08; Posts: 7,997; Likes: 23,032Thank you BTL.
I was just listening to an interview with Madeleine Albright where she was saying that rape has been declared a method of war.
That is how serious rape really is.
I actually was not so passionate about this subject until the election when I read all of the trash talk from conservative men about "gifts from God', special fluids, need for ASA as a contrceptive, "the fact that some women are easy to rape". These are other comments showed how dysfunctional our current education has been and must continue to be if people actually believe it.
I am a firm believer in eduction. These men showed their ignorance and I, for one, wnat to break that silence that they count on.
We all saw what happened to Penn State when it was discovered how much had been covered up to keep things looking "normal". There is no way that abuse of anyone by sex or any other way is normal. If we accept it in any form we diminish ourselves.
Dec 5, '12Occupation: PACU RN Specialty: PACU, OR ; From: ZA ; Joined: Jun '10; Posts: 8,734; Likes: 9,910Returning to the mindset regarding rape - AKY, you referred to the "spoils of war" attitude prevailing in certain societies. Where women have no voice of their own and are not treated with the same respect and deference commanded by men, the concept of woman as a commodity takes hold. As you well know, in certain cultural and religious groups, women are regarded more as beasts of burden, or if they are lucky, as pampered pets, rather than as human beings with a right to their own opinions and, possibly, the ability to change the world for the better. These groups will argue, and I have heard them do so, that such "religious laws" or "social mores" spring from respect for women and a need to protect them. They further assert that in their own families, women are treasured and cherished. However, such treatment begs the question - are their women possessions, to be used and disposed of at will, lacking minds of their own, even souls of their own, or are they beloved equals? No, I don't think so. Perhaps that was the intention when such laws and mores were formed, but it does not work like that in practice. While there are men who uphold the principles of these laws, and are wonderful fathers and husbands, the majority (in my observation), especially in traditional settings, seize the opportunity to treat their womenfolk as slaves. This leads to a belief system amongst them that they have a right to sexual favours, and it is the woman's duty to accommodate them. Should she refuse, she must be forced as a form of "discipline".
Coming to you from a country where polygamy is upheld as a cultural "right", regardless of the message it sends out concerning promiscuity, where women are paid for up front as part of the marriage proposal, where young girls of 13 or 14 are sold to older men to be their "wives" by their own parents, and where "corrective rape" is practised on lesbians, I hope you can root out and destroy such destructive attitudes in your own country. More and more young people from 3rd World countries are travelling to the developed world, many of them to work and gain experience which they later carry home to their own countries. They need to see good examples being set, and to learn the kind of respect for others, including women, that springs forth where human rights are not merely propounded on, but upheld.
Dec 14, '12Occupation: retired From: US ; Joined: Jun '08; Posts: 7,997; Likes: 23,032Outrage as rape case judge tells victim: ‘If she didn’t want sex, her body should have just shut down’ - Americas, World News - Independent.ie
A CALIFORNIA judge has prompted outrage after saying that a rape victim didn't put up a fight during her assault and that if someone doesn't want sex, the body "will not permit that to happen".
Judge Johnson was making the comments in the case of a man who threatened to mutilate the face and genitals of his ex-girlfriend with a heated screwdriver. The man also beat her with a metal baton and made violent threats before committing rape and forcing oral copulation.
According to police reports Judge Johnson said: 'I’m not a gynaecologist, but I can tell you something, if someone doesn’t want to have sexual intercourse, the body shuts down. The body will not permit that to happen unless a lot of damage is inflicted, and we heard nothing about that in this case.
This disgusts me so much. How much damage is a woman supposed to endure in order to have rape called rape?
We must find a way to educate judges like this or have them removed.