Former Senior CIA Official's Thoughts on 911 - page 3

You should know that this man, Bill Christison was, prior to his retirement, a Senior Officer of the CIA, a National Intelligence Officer, and the Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and... Read More

  1. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Let me quote the much venerated by the left Carl Sagan:

    EXTRAORDINARY CLAIMS REQUIRE EXTRAORDINARY PROOF.

    Inuendo and fact-shading does NOT rise to that bar.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
  2. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from spacenurse
    It was simulating airplanes crashing into a building.
    Anyway, this has been fun but I'm going to sleep.
    Yes, they were conducting exercises for a real-life situation for THEM: being 4 miles from a runway, a plane accidentally veering off course and crashing into THEIR buildings.

    I used to live in the flight path of BWI airport. I could SEE the airline logos as they landed. The thought crossed my mind, as well, that they could possibly crash into MY house.

    Does THAT mean that I knew about 9/11 in advance?

    I grant you this: the right term for this line of thought is indeed, 'bizarre'.

    However coincidental, correlation is NOT causation. Just because 90% of people eat peas within the SAME MONTH (the same exact time frame) as when they die does NOT mean that peas are 'death food'.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Aug 17, '06
  3. by   ZASHAGALKA
    In light of the fact that such conspiracies are 'dancing on the graves' of Americans, heroes no less, I simply require that such extraordinary claims require more than causal inuendo and misrepresentation of facts that are abundently in the public domain.

    Otherwise, such claims are shameful.

    They do nothing more than tear at our collective soul. THAT is why these claims strike such a dissonant chord with me.

    I refuse to debunk everyday heroes as gov't conspirators based upon coffee table rhetoric. Not when the encyclopedia of facts are in as plain sight as the rhetoric.

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...tml?page=1&c=y

    "The widely accepted account that hijackers commandeered and crashed the four 9/11 planes is supported by reams of evidence, from cockpit recordings to forensics to the fact that crews and passengers never returned home. Nonetheless, conspiracy theorists seize on a handful of "facts" to argue a very different scenario: The jets that struck New York and Washington, D.C., weren't commercial planes, they say, but something else, perhaps refueling tankers or guided missiles. And the lack of military intervention? Theorists claim it proves the U.S. government instigated the assault or allowed it to occur in order to advance oil interests or a war agenda."

    You can arrange and shade the facts to reach a desired conclusion, but you cannot evaluate these facts on their face and reach those same conclusions. THAT'S the difference between truth and propaganda.

    The truth IS out there. But only for those that open their eyes to see it. Everything else is just a dirty, filthy lie. And the reason it's a dirty lie is BECAUSE of the heroes impugned by the lie.

    Dastardly. Indeed.

    Baseless accusations do NOT rise to the level of earnestly seeking the truth. Just because it's said and repeated does NOT make it worthy of examination. Where is the extraordinary proof that allows these lies the light of day? A muddled picture of a smoking gun is not enough. Accusations such as these require a spot on ballistics match - AND actual fingerprints on the gun.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Aug 17, '06
  4. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from spacenurse
    I don't get what you mean by magic bullet either.
    That was part of my reference to the Warren Report and the claim that both Pres. Kennedy and Gov. Connolly were shot be a single 'magic' bullet.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
  5. by   pickledpepperRN
    Oh. I'm not arguing for any one conspiracy theory. I'm saying what has been agreed to. Witnesses lied to the 9/11 commission. Another opinion is that the commission was a political "show".
    The Occam's Razor reference does not seem apt because the President said, "No one could have conceivably imagined suicide bombers burrowing into our society and then emerging all in the same day to fly their aircraft - fly U.S. aircraft into buildings full of innocent people" YET the former administration has been blamed for not preventing this. There is a lot of information. Possible much the public cannot know. SO it is not a simple thing to know what happened. New information was released in the last 24 hours:
    http://www.newsday.com/news/local/ne...p-lottery-wire
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3767642a12,00.html
    http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...a-story-footer
    --------------------------------------
    Some staff members and commissioners of the Sept. 11 panel concluded that the Pentagon's initial story of how it reacted to the 2001 terrorist attacks may have been part of a deliberate effort to mislead the commission and the public...
    ...Staff members and some commissioners thought that e-mails and other evidence provided enough probable cause to believe that military and aviation officials violated the law by making false statements to Congress and to the commission, hoping to hide the bungled response to the hijackings, these sources said.
    In the end, the panel agreed to a compromise, turning over the allegations to the inspectors general for the Defense and Transportation departments, who can make criminal referrals if they believe they are warranted, officials said.
    "We to this day don't know why NORAD [the North American Aerospace Command] told us what they told us," said Thomas H. Kean, the former New Jersey Republican governor who led the commission. "It was just so far from the truth....
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...080101300.html
    ----------------------------------------
    Remember it was families of those who died that day who called for the commission. To dismiss their search for truth as "political" does no justice to the memory of those who were killed.

    All of us want to preven terrorism. Some of the surviving families are working to prevent others from suffering what they live with daily - http://www.peacefultomorrows.org/art...t=type&type=12
    Last edit by pickledpepperRN on Aug 17, '06
  6. by   indigo girl
    Just some thoughts on some of what you posted, Tim.


    Quote from John McCain
    "Blaming some conspiracy within our government for the horrific attacks of September 11 mars the memories of all those lost on that day."
    This is political spin. Suspecting foul play has absolutely nothing to do with marring the memories. There are well known family members of some of the victims, who are questioning this story also.

    http://www.oilempire.us/911families.html#kleinberg

    Quote from John McCain
    "There were errors and missteps in our government's response, to be sure, but the performance of our public servants was on the whole heroic, not destructive. For their service--for their lives--we are indebted, and we are obliged to pay our debts to those who sacrificed. To blame not a gang of terrorists but some conspiracy for September 11 insults the police officers and firefighters who raced into the burning towers;"
    Obfuscation of who the theorists are blaming. They certainly are not blaming the rescuers!! This is a ridiculous statement, really,

    Quote from John McCain
    "the men and women who left for dangerous, distant lands to fight our enemies; and those who have fought in all the wars of our history."
    Come on, McCain! My dad was a POW in Germany who died an early death due to his mistreatment. I honor his memory.
    This is like saying, if you don't believe what we say, you are unpatriotic.
    Talk about shameful, this is downright disgusting. The disagreement is about what happened, and who is responsible, not the rescuers, not the soldiers "who left for foreign lands".

    Quote from John McCain
    "We cannot let these tales go unanswered. The 9/11 conspiracy movement exploits the public's anger and sadness."
    I guess he doesn't get that ALL OF US are angry and sad. Exploitation as a motive, is not what this is all about.

    Quote from John McCain
    "It shakes Americans' faith in their government at a time when that faith is already near an all-time low."
    So, we should not question anything because the people are already losing faith. Good argument, the natives are restless.

    Quote from John McCain
    "It traffics in ugly, unfounded accusations of extraordinary evil against fellow Americans."
    If it's true, than it is ugly. If fellow Americans were involved, than it is extraordinarily evil.

    Quote from John McCain
    "And, as we have seen recently in the Iranian president's bizarre letter to President Bush, it has even entered the currency of international affairs."
    That is rather interesting. He actually cares what Iran or any other country is saying about this? A little dislike never bothered this gov't before or stopped it from interfering outside of its boarders either for that matter, but let's not go there.

    Quote from John McCain
    "The conspiracy theories are a distraction from the proper lessons of 9/11, from what is truly important to this country."
    He does not say what the proper lessons are. He does not elaborate his view of what is truly important for the rest of us. But, we get the picture.

    Quote from John McCain
    "And so it is imperative to confront them with the facts. The authors of this book, through their extensive reporting, disprove these tales of conspiracy. They show that, without exception, the stories are based on misconceptions, distortions, and outright lies. The CIA was not involved in 9/11. Our military did not bring about the destruction of the World Trade Center. Bombs or missiles did not fell the towers. A white jet aircraft did not shoot down Flight 93."
    I might actually agree with him that some of this untrue, maybe even much of it. However, there are still some things that just do not add up.

    Quote from John McCain
    "I understand the nature of conspiracy theories. But, I cannot abide, in good conscience, dancing on the grave of Americans to make a political point. Shame. Shame. Shame."
    More spin, who is making a political point here? Questioning the official version of what happened is not the same thing as "dancing on the grave of Americans". Equating disagreement with this is deliberately aimed at painting anyone who doubts this as morally wrong. That is nonsensical. It is another form of distortion of truth.

    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    "I guess there's no point in mentioning that the author of the OP link retired from gov't service in 1979. As such, using his credentials is a logical fallacy: appealing to an authority that is NO authority at all on the topic."
    Correct, no point, you are entitled to an opinion, of course, and that is all it is. Perhaps he just might know something about intelligence gathering, and analysis that the rest of us don't know. Negating his very real experience resulting from government service, and his continued involvement in analysis is what is illogical, IMHO.
    Last edit by Roy Fokker on Aug 18, '06
  7. by   indigo girl
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    Here's another thought from the OP link's writer:

    http://www.doublestandards.org/christison5.html

    "We should throw out present U.S. policies on appeasement and isolationism, and start a fresh and brand-new discussion of just how much appeasement and isolationism might be desirable policies for the U.S. to espouse. The "a" and the "i" words are almost universally considered bad words by most Americans today. We need to change that – appeasement and isolationism should become good words again."
    Thank you for those sage comments, Neville Chamberlain. . ."
    Thank you for the link. He makes some excellent points which you just don't happen to agree with, more's the pity. I was particularly interested in his information on this country's use of torture, but I'm sure it's of no interest to this argument.

    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    "Another quote:
    http://discuss.washingtonpost.com/wp...stison0410.htm

    "AND, we should start a major "Marshall-Plan aid program in the third world. The amount of such a plan might be $350 billion spread over three years, not the tine $10 billion President Bush proposed recently in Monterrey, Mexico. $350 billion is less than the U.S. military budget proposed for the next ONE fiscal year. . .


    "You're right, of course. But the tensions between Palestinians and Israelis are so high now that NOTHING will stand a chance of working unless the U.S. involves itself deeply and takes an even handed approach to both sides--something it has not done for the past many years. I believe the U.S. must press for a solution based on two truly sovereign nations, with strong treaty guarantees from the United States for BOTH of these nations. "

    "Are these comments from the Neville that just stated that isolationism would be a GOOD thing for America? Maybe he just meant the appeasement part of his comments, above.
    Maybe the U.S. gov't could hire Press-Gainey to script our international policy: "How can we appease you today? We have the time."

    He did say isolationism and appeasement. Perhaps, you would use whichever was appropriate, depending on the situation. Too black and white? Well, then let's just decide, one or the other and stick to it! No time to be appropriate, we must be in reaction mode.

    The comments about the very real disenfranchisement of the Palestinian people, speaks to the heart of why there will be no peace there. But, don't look at that, just focus on discrediting him because his views of how to accomplish peace are different.
    Last edit by Roy Fokker on Aug 18, '06
  8. by   indigo girl
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    In light of the fact that such conspiracies are 'dancing on the graves' of Americans, heroes no less, I simply require that such extraordinary claims require more than causal inuendo and misrepresentation of facts that are abundently in the public domain.

    Otherwise, such claims are shameful.

    They do nothing more than tear at our collective soul. THAT is why these claims strike such a dissonant chord with me.

    I refuse to debunk everyday heroes as gov't conspirators based upon coffee table rhetoric. Not when the encyclopedia of facts are in as plain sight as the rhetoric.

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...tml?page=1&c=y

    "The widely accepted account that hijackers commandeered and crashed the four 9/11 planes is supported by reams of evidence, from cockpit recordings to forensics to the fact that crews and passengers never returned home. Nonetheless, conspiracy theorists seize on a handful of "facts" to argue a very different scenario: The jets that struck New York and Washington, D.C., weren't commercial planes, they say, but something else, perhaps refueling tankers or guided missiles. And the lack of military intervention? Theorists claim it proves the U.S. government instigated the assault or allowed it to occur in order to advance oil interests or a war agenda."

    You can arrange and shade the facts to reach a desired conclusion, but you cannot evaluate these facts on their face and reach those same conclusions. THAT'S the difference between truth and propaganda.

    The truth IS out there. But only for those that open their eyes to see it. Everything else is just a dirty, filthy lie. And the reason it's a dirty lie is BECAUSE of the heroes impugned by the lie.

    Dastardly. Indeed.

    Baseless accusations do NOT rise to the level of earnestly seeking the truth. Just because it's said and repeated does NOT make it worthy of examination. Where is the extraordinary proof that allows these lies the light of day? A muddled picture of a smoking gun is not enough. Accusations such as these require a spot on ballistics match - AND actual fingerprints on the gun.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Which particular heroes are we referring to, the police, the firemen, the rescue workers, who? Is anyone arguing that they were not heroic?
    Is the reference about the passengers?

    Which particular theory is being referred to, or are they all being put together despite the fact that we have said quite clearly that we do not credit all of the theories as true. That being said, claiming the moral highground, and calling all of these questions "dirty, stinking lies" is a non sequiter, because we are not, in fact impugning the victims or the rescuers. Saying that we are, is simply untrue. Let's be clear here. The events were "dastardly". Questioning the official story is not. It is OK to question.
    It is necessary even, to question until the people are satisfied. The people are not satisfied. They are not. It does not mean anyone is unpatriotic. That is ridiculous. Tell that to the families who continue to question. The truth is not owned by anyone. It exists in its own right. The patriotic rhetoric is getting old. Our country, our people, and our planet are dearly loved by all of us. They are not simply the arrogant purview of those who insist that the official story is the only version of events, and that daring to question ANY PART OF IT is unprincipled. Even if most of the story is true, if some of it turns out not to be true, it needs to be acknowledged.
    Last edit by indigo girl on Aug 19, '06
  9. by   pickledpepperRN
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    The 9/11 commission was a political body. Of course their goal wasn't to tell the truth. Their goal was to conduct a 'political' show. That, they did.

    I no sooner put stock in the 9/11 commission then I do the Warren Report.

    Call me a conspiracy theorist, LOL, but I don't believe in the Occam's Razor of 'magical bullets'.

    I read this link. If anything, it points out the mess in trying to sort things out. If anything, it shoots down (no pun intended) the conspiracy theory that the U.S. COULD have prevented 9/11 by shooting down those planes. Heck, they couldn't find their own bottoms during the whole mess - using both hands and a fighter 'stick'.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    So what is wrong with trying to find as much of the truth as possible?

    Don't you think it truly odd that on the same day a drill simulating a plane flying into a building was to take place planes flew into buildings?
    And two government agencies later told untrue accounts of the events to the commission, and FAA tapes are lost?
    Last edit by pickledpepperRN on Aug 17, '06
  10. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from spacenurse
    And two government agencies later told untrue accounts of the events to the commission, and FAA tapes are lost?
    But, you said yourself, that it appears the goal of the obfuscation was to cover their 'bungling' of the event.

    You linked a detailed article from Vanity Fair that details the bungling.

    You provide the MOTIVE for the inconsistent testimony. So, let me ask you: what does this have to do with CONSPIRACY theories about the gov't purposely allowing 9/11 to happen?

    Look, if you want to break down the 9/11 report and the inconsistencies there, we can go to town.

    Let's start with Jamie Gorelick being on the committee. She is the very person that created the WALL between prosecution and interdiction, and in the process, tied the CIA/FBI's hands to crosstalk with each other!

    How about completely ignoring ABLE DANGER?

    I suspect all the lies told at 9/11 Commission and all the butt covering would require its own forum to adequately discuss.

    I'm not going to stick up for some mid-level military guys I know little about. Maybe they lied their butts off. What does that have to do with a conspiracy?

    EXTRAORDINARY CLAIMS REQUIRE EXTRAORDINARY PROOF.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
  11. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from spacenurse
    So what is wrong with trying to find as much of the truth as possible?

    Don't you think it truly odd that on the same day a drill simulating a plane flying into a building was to take place planes flew into buildings?
    And two government agencies later told untrue accounts of the events to the commission, and FAA tapes are lost?
    Nothing is wrong with trying to find the truth.

    These conspiracy theories are NOT about trying to find the truth. They are about purposely distorting the truth for political gain.

    There is a difference between lying and telling the truth. There is a difference between seeking the truth and seeking a political spin.

    Indigo: there' NOTHING wrong with trying to find the truth. But, that is NOT what these filthy lies are about. And that is evident on its face. Look at your original link. It starts with Pres. Bush the terrorist and liar. THAT is what these lies are about - furthering that political viewpoint.

    It is shameful. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Don't bring up inuendo and lies and then assert that we have to investigate them. That's an old political game: bring up a baseless charge and then pontificate about "The seriousness of the charges themselves require a full investigation." That is what this is about: the claims themselves are all the proof those that peddle this garbage need. The TBs (true believers) will do the rest. . .

    NO, I don't think it's odd that the gov't was performing exercises on that day, just like every day. No, I don't think it's odd that a gov't agency located spitting distance from the runway of Dulles would routinely run exercises regarding what to do if a plane missed the runway and crashed near them. Let me ask you this: would YOU think it odd that a city like New Orleans would conduct Hurricane exercises? Maybe it's a BIZARRE coincidence that NO conducted Hurricane drills at almost the SAME time as Katrina hit. This is PROOF that evil Republicans planned Katrina. And do you know how devious that was? It took 40 yrs of global warming for them to carry out their vicious schemes!!!

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
  12. by   pickledpepperRN
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    But, you said yourself, that it appears the goal of the obfuscation was to cover their 'bungling' of the event.

    You linked a detailed article from Vanity Fair that details the bungling.

    You provide the MOTIVE for the inconsistent testimony. So, let me ask you: what does this have to do with CONSPIRACY theories about the gov't purposely allowing 9/11 to happen?

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    One of the articles said it was to cover up bungling, not me. I do think it is a likely reason.
    Also the obvious that perhaps the knowledge of the drill caused the confusion. They kept asking, "It this a drill?"

    Again, I'm not supporting any theory except that we have not been told the truth.
    The President claimed no one could imagine a plane flying into the world trade center.
    But the whistleblowers were fired.

    "I don't think anybody could have predicted that they would try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile," said national security adviser Condoleeza Rice on May 16, 2002.

    "How is it possible we have a national security advisor coming out and saying we had no idea they could use planes as weapons when we had FBI records from 1991 stating that this is a possibility," said Kristen Breitweiser, one of four New Jersey widows who lobbied Congress and the president to appoint the commission.
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in589137.shtml
  13. by   ZASHAGALKA
    See, what is at issue here is what goes too far for political spin.

    This concept is actually eye-opening to me. Although not as heinous an accusation, I admit, while not actually believing it, to peddling crap about Pres. Clinton and the alledged narcotics trafficking at Mena, AR.

    I admit to accusing him, WITHOUT EXTRAORDINARY PROOF, of rape.

    Like you, Indigo, while I didn't personally take stock in them, it suited me politically to peddle the rumors.

    There is a difference between legitimate political disagreement and vicious slander/libel. When we get to the point that those that disagree with us MUST be vicious murderers of Americans for political gain, we are going too far.

    Simply put, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Vicious lies do NOT deserve a place at the table merely due to the seriousness of the baseless allegations. You know why Nixon resigned? There was actually some REAL truth to the allegations.

    Is it any wonder politics is so polarized these days? You disagree with me? Why, you're SATAN INCARNATE!!!!

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Aug 17, '06

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