Interesting article about God

I know my faith is not logical. It cannot be proven. That is what faith is.

If it could be proven it would not need faith.

One cold morning I rode my bike to get a cup of coffee and a donut. then went to a 7:00 am class. Pushing my bike across an overpass bridge I suddenly understood. God and physics are the same. Since then I know but cannot explain with words. I'm sure that no one will be denied joining with the universe because of ignorance. At the moment of death we will know. Then we choose God or not.

It makes no sense so I can't explain it.

I love what you wrote. It will take me a minute to make my point re: logic & religion.

I never thought of belief in science, especially controversial issues like Darwinism & the Big Bang Theory, & belief in a higher power as mutually exclusive. Why? It is more logical to me that an intelligent mind was behind these events. Yes, I came from monkeys, but a higher being (called God by some) planned that.

I believe in a God that interacts in our lives; I'm not sure to what extent; I don't think God helped me pick out my shirt today. I would think it strange for a higher being to put us here & say, "Good luck; you're on your own!"

Edited Feb 18, 2013 by mariebailey

you know frances, i logged off here and was just thinking about this thread.when i thought of your post, it reminded me how much i enjoy you as a person.2you are truly TRULY a lovely woman, whose integrity and love of her religion, just shines through.to me, you are a true Christian who lives as Jesus would embrace.i esp love reading about your family life....it sounds truly loving and content.my spirit feels and knows this to be true.i thought it important to share this with you.thanks for being you.leslie

//"I have always wondered, this is a generalization but something I have been curious about. If someone doesn't believe in God or religion, why do they spend time and energy trying to disprove the idea? Why not ignore it and go on living life?"//

Great question, Frances, we get this one a lot. No one ever ever questions a theist or deist who puts forth their idea, or promotes or even recruits for THEIR beliefs, no one.

NO one questions theists who erect giant expensive buildings, or sell books, or have weekly meetings, or run multiple tv channels, why do they push their ideas??

Yes, some atheists do feel the exact same passion about the topic, equivalent to the theists' passions. I'd bet, if we could count the number of websites, or the number of posts on AN about gods, i'd bet, theists posts "for" gods far far far far far outnumber those of us who promote questioning.

No one asks, "why do YOU push your ideas on gods?" to theists. Never happens. Strikes me as odd----I feel what atheist thinking offers, is even more valuable than what theology offers. I truly really do.

I am for rational thinking. I have seen the damage done by religions. I feel religion is a dangerous, bad thing which discourages critical thinking skills, among other dangers. I have written many a blog on other sites of the damage done by religions. It might be, that theists do not realize the dangers that religions can have.

Also, no one else BUT us would be promoting questioning if any of this stuff is rational, or even slightly necessary for any reason at all. Sometimes, i do feel a bit like the kid in that story, "The Emperor's Clothes"...

also, i do think, being an atheist much improves life, and i DO "go on living life" and do not feel, my promoting questioning, prevents me, in any way, from fully enjoying life. Becoming an atheist completely changes Everything around you, imo.

Edited Feb 18, 2013 by somenurse

//"I know there was a man who spent much of his time trying to have laws changed or the twelve commandments taken out of court houses, etc. This is interesting to me."//

I am also against any one religion being promoted on govt sites, or by tax dollars, as outlined in our constitution. When christians are stopped from promoting their gods, at the line of lands supported by tax dollars, they often view that as "oppression". Religions are entirely free to practice their worship in any way they choose, so long as no children are harmed, etc, on PRIVATELY owned lands,

but,

can not have their christian religion on govt lands or tax supported areas. Or "should not" is probably more accurate.

Of the 10 commandments, only 2 are civil laws. The other 8, are not. I am MUCH MUCH against theocracies, as they are always always disasterous,

and i am very much FOR having civil law trump religious law. Any time, any place any religion that has been made to BE the area's civil law,

has always been a horrifically oppressive violent area.

Christians are entirely free to worship,

just not using our tax dollars at all.

wow, thank you, this never happens to me. It takes a big person to say that. In your defense, after decades of having similar discussions with others about gods, it is almost 100% guaranteed, the person does feel insulted if another doesn't agree about gods. Is nothing wrong with you at all, it is very common thing.

we atheists get disagreed with, most every time we open our mouths, ha ha! Be glad you are not an atheist!

It would further your discussion with Christians if you narrowed your language to "god" rather than "gods". Christians are accused of worshiping multiple gods because of the trinity. So we tend to be a bit defensive about that.

I was agnostic for more years than I have been a born again Christian...so I get perspective from your end.

//"Why not ignore it and go on living life? It seems like a waste of one's energy and time to debate something, that in the atheist's mind, doesn't exist. "//

Great questions, which i mostly addressed in posts abovue, but, i do find it hard to "ignore" irrational thinking at times. I do not see the harm in promoting questioning and exploration. at all.

I don't see promoting critical thinking skills, and higher levels of morality (instead of fear-based, or reward-based morality) as a waste of time, anymore than probably most theists see their pushing and posting about their ideas as a waste of time.

Especially when i feel (many people do) that religion is harmful and dangerous.

We atheists have long been oppressed (even burned at the stake) and many of us are now "coming out" so to speak. Desensitizing others to our presence, to help others become more familiar, that yes, we are good people, could be viewed as one step in the process of becoming mainstreamed, in a nation that still has some laws on the books forbidding atheists to run for public office!

We have come a long way, we have, i have seen HUGE changes in just my lifetime, oh wow, could i bore you all with the typical reaction given to atheists in the 70s for hours. HOrrific and cruel.

People today are still getting fired for being atheist, even in todays modern era, this happens. I feel, the more chances others have to actually question us, get a handle on the notion we can be valuable human beings, is a helpful thing in our progress away from oppression and being treated so cruelly.

It is very very hard to find even one (1) atheist that has NOT been treated horribly and cruelly. I DO mean cruelly, too, wow, really cruel stories. Many of us are rejected even by our own families, as there are big misconceptions about us.

(this is NOT the main reason i post, but, i felt it was worth pointing out)

Edited Feb 18, 2013 by somenurse

It would further your discussion with Christians if you narrowed your language to "god" rather than "gods". Christians are accused of worshiping multiple gods because of the trinity. So we tend to be a bit defensive about that.

I was agnostic for more years than I have been a born again Christian...so I get perspective from your end.

i feel there are 3 gods in the bible, as i've described before. The gods in the bible are worshiped by only 1/3 to 1/4 of the globe, there are many many other gods than the ones worshiped by christians. I often interact with a global community online, but, i recognize that some christians do believe much of the globe all worships the same way they do, but, it's not true.

It is hard for some christians to hear different ideas, as few, if any, have ever even been challenged to even examine the ideas they have. (like their gods are, in fact, invisible, and the bible does name 3 different gods with 3 different personalities who talk to each other..i'm not even sure, although i am VERY well versed in the bible, if the bible ever states all 3 are the same entity..... they more often refer to each other as separate entities, i know of several verses where the 3 gods do refer to each other as a separate being. The bible does seem to feel all 3 are different gods).

Many christians only interact with others who all think juuuust like they do, and it can be hard to hear from someone who does feel all the gods on the planet are much the same. Still, i think, questioning and logic are GOOD things, and even more valuable than 'faith' can be.

Edited Feb 18, 2013 by somenurse

It would further your discussion with Christians if you narrowed your language to "god" rather than "gods". Christians are accused of worshiping multiple gods because of the trinity. So we tend to be a bit defensive about that.

I was agnostic for more years than I have been a born again Christian...so I get perspective from your end.

btw, technically, i am also "agnostic" too.

Gnostic, agnostic refers to what one "knows"

Theism, deism, atheism, refers to what one "believes"

You can mix and match from both words to self label. ONe could be an agnostic theist, or a gnostic atheist, or an agnostic atheist, (most are) or a gnostic deist, etc etc, on and on.

I technically self-label as every so slightly "agnostic" as there is no proof no gods exist, out of respect for the scientific version of standards req'd to use the word "proof".

No one can prove there are no gods, but, again, the burden lies with those MAKING the claim. I do not know for scientific fact that there is no gods, but i do not believe there are gods, so i am technically, a slightly agnostic atheist, out of respect for the word "know" or the word "proof".

I rarely state that, though, as most people do not understand the word "agnostic" the way i use the word, and it leads to confusion. The word "agnostic" can also mean one who does not think gods CAN be known, at all. Such a person could still "believe" that gods do or don't exist,

but, realizes the difference between what we "know" for a proven fact,

and what we feel or "believe" to be true. It's really two different things.

i apologize for my lifelong habit of always going back and editing my own posts multiple times. If someone were to read my post immediately after i post it, and reread it 15 minutes later,

it is now a different post. I am sorry, i am working on this bad bad habit of mine.

I like St. Patrick's view of the Trinity. The clover.

Three leaves of one stem supplying the growth for the entire.

Lots of groups are persecuted. Some religious, some without religion as a basis for the persecution. While I am empathetic to the plight of athiests, I am more prone to think about those who are and have been persecuted for specific relgious beliefs. We see it daily all over the world. My DS is in missions work. I have to keep begging him not to go to some countries where his life expectancy is little longer than the plane ride to get there.

He and I do not agree about religion either. It is a hot button topic for many. We keep the discussions about religion in the relgion and ethics part of AN for good reason, I believe. It tends to remain a more courtious discourse about personal and connected beliefs. A majority of the posters seem to be Christian, not unusual since we have more people from areas of high Christian habitation. We also have a range of religions presented and each one has someting to teach all of us. Some of our Pagan members teach me the most, as I knew nothing about that religion.

I would love to see a broader base of religions represented. There are so many that I know little about and this is a safe place to ask questions. Most of us do not come with all the answers.

yes, the clover, is one of many ways that christians find to say the 3 gods in their holy book, are really only one god. I am very familiar with that, and with other phrases, and slogans about how the 3 gods with different personalities, different names, and different roles, who can be present simultaneously, and even speak TO each other, are really, just one (1) god in their opinion.

I do not necessarily even understand the aversion to polytheism, at all, seems no better or worse than monotheism, but, for whatever reason, it's hard to find a chrstian who even seems aware one could logically deduce that the bible describes 3 separate gods by name. For some reason, some *seem* to feel that is a "put down", but, i don't understand why 3 gods seem less desirable to them.

also, most christians seem to focus on their own persecution, this is oftne HUGE focus fro christians (whether real or not) they often see themselves as victims of oppression, even though they are in power, and usually always have been.

it's less common to ever hear one discuss the persecution DONE by christians, their role in many of the world's darkest moments, from the slave trade, to the crusades, times when christianity WAS the law of the land, (shiver!) the protection of pedophile priests, long long long long list of horrific abuses,a very horrible past. That church has very bloody history. Even to this day, there are christians still persecuting others.

EDIT, i am removing the part here, about "The Family", it'd lead to huge derail.

Christians can still use their bible laws to oppress others. They are about 80% or more of the population, and are over 99% of our elected officials. they ARE in power.

and yes, if someone of one religion

goes to a country where their religion is NOT the religon in power,

there is often discrimination or even violence. Ask any muslim in America....

Edited Feb 18, 2013 by somenurse