Interesting article about God

Moments that were powerful to you, had the bible inserted into them. It is comfortable and familiar to you. At times when you were maybe barely able to inhale/exhale, at maybe the hardest ever moments in your life, others around you comforted you with words from the bible. You most likely, grew up with it. You have found a way to maybe focus only the parts you like best, ignore the rest, without letting those ugly parts land on you, or maybe you just skip over/gloss over those parts of the NT,

and it is almost maybe a habit for you, to turn to it, when you are stressed or afraid or in pain or whatever.

It might even be part of a community you belong to, in some form or another, like i talk about in post#63.

Still, even the NT has terrible ideas, (like eternal torture for finite sins, and so many other bad ideas in the NT too, i could list them all, but won't)

The Jesus character, who mentioned over 100 times to follow the OT, referred to OT stories as real, and Jesus did leave much to be desired, but did had some great qualities..

i personally especially loved that the Jesus god was a liberal.

even said those who don't help the poor will burn eternally, (apparently didn't think of the poor as 'takers')

and seemed to think rich people might not be getting into heaven,

Jesus did not seem a fan of making money as the end all goal, was wayy into sharing (usually) Seemed to grasp that taxes were necessary in some communities with shared amenities, and was intermittently against violence. Lots of things make me think he'd be a liberal. Plus, like his dad, Jesus liked wine. You could pick a worse god.

but, i could list a ton of things wrong with him, too. Kinda big list of questionable things most people don't seem to notice are very wrong with that guy. "Love me or Burn" is no way to get love, imo.

There are some fascinating stories about that Paul. The origins of any religion are always interesting to me.

but, you have made many powerful associations to the stories of these particular gods, and to that book. Maybe a solemnity can surround it, in your mind, too, because of the associations there. It might even be, in part, a sentimental thing for you by now, too.

thank you again for opening your heart up like that, it was very beautiful, very generous of you.

i am sitting here, face scrunched...

as i am not understanding why you would feel the need to politely condemn such a powerful source of comfort for aky/anyone?

why does it matter how she was introduced to the bible?

why does it matter about Jesus' political affiliations?

why should it matter that you consider Jesus very fallible, as the rest of man is?

there is nothing inherently wrong about your statements, jean.

for me though, there is a time and place to discuss it.

and when someone is sharing a profoundly personal story that brings tremendous comfort to this person, why do you consider that an appropriate time to subsequently belittle her stated source of comfort?

seriously, help me understand...because to me, your response was filled with scorn.

leslie

I will be offline tomorrow, too, but, i am now reading your very thoughtful posts. NOt sure i'll have time to reply to everything today, or not.

I would agree, that no one should promote questioning and logic, IF the person was not participating in, or for a divisive religion, that can do so much damage in the world, and in various families, too. If religions were not oppressive, destructive, divisive forces in the world, at the root of almost every war----IF that were the case---i'd probably understand how one would want Never questioning how people end up participating in that religion.

Christians have been in power and allowed to "be" without questioning, for 1000s of years, and the religion has long bloody history, and that religion is still used to this day to oppress, and even influence legislation and govt in irrational ways. AKY herself is not to blame, not my point at all, but, having members who support the religion does help keep it going. The idea that a book that is full of immoral stories can be used as a moral guide, is an idea that makes no sense to me, and i felt it was worth questioning why, would they still use the book. Why would anyone use that book is a valid question.

I totally support your right to feel however you want to feel. I do not necessary agree, that my words have to be guided by your dislike of my questions though. I feel, on a thread about gods, about how we view gods, about how we find our gods, how we come to use books that are so obviously chockful of immorality as moral guides, that if AKY wanted to answer my question to her, that it was okay for me to reply to her answer.

I am for having free and open discussion------for those who DO want to discuss and explore how we feel about our gods---- how we describe our gods, why we choose to have gods, etc.

For those who only want to hear only matching opinions, there are bazillions of religious people to discuss it with, and there is always church, multiple tv channels, weekly meetings, tons of books, magazines, and bazillions of religious forums, etc. Many many many outlets for those who do not want questioning as part of a discussion, or who do not want logic held up as anything to consider in making decisions about gods.

I felt AKY's post was directly to me, directly answering MY question to her,

as she begins her post with

//"I was asked a question that is so easy and yet so hard to answer. Why use the Bible? Is there a need for the Bible? "//

which i much appreciated her taking the time to explain why she chose the bible.

I felt most of the need for the bible, imo, why she turned to the bible, that some parts of her reply kind of reminded me of hypothetical things done for another hypothetical god, back in reply#63. Why a person chooses one god over another, when there are so many available gods to worship, or how an obviously intelligent person like AKY, can cherry pick to find a way to overlook the atrocities and immorality in the bible, and still use it as her guide in life, is interesting to me, and a worthy topic, imo.

Some people reading along can have the beginnings of an oncoming "ah ha" moment, if they study how they ended up worshiping the particular theistic god that they worship, why that theistic god? Others don't have that moment. Sometimes, that moment, can be a step towards more questioning.

//" After all, no one has to justify it to anyone, just as no one is asking you to justify atheism"//

I am not so much promoting atheism, as i have, on multiple posts, made supportive remarks about deism over theism. I am more promoting logic, rationality, reason, the use of critical thinking skills, and questioning in general,how and questioning how and why we think what we think,

and yes, i am, apparently, having to justify these things.

To avoid making a too-long post, i will not reply to ALL the rest of the remarks in just one (1) post,

and instead, will strive for shorter posts, and reply to other remarks in subsequent posts. I hope that doesn't get me in trouble for multiple posts, but, many valid questions are being asked of me, and i sincerely feel the other remarks deserve a reply, too.

In my Biblical Studies & World Religion courses in college, Jesus was never presented as someone with socialist views toward social & fiscal issues;

i believe you. The fact it was never brought up in your bible class, does not mean it's not true.

I would not attempt to put him on a modern day political spectrum.

That is fine if you do not want to attempt evaluating how Jesus's words could apply to today's issues,

or if you do not want to attempt to explore how some of the examples Jesus set, could be used a guide for many complex issues we face today,

but, i feel if one does look at the NT biblegod Jesus, there are many many stories that indicate he might have been a liberal on almost every issue. But, i will completely, entirely agree, that there are far more valid and rational ways to approach today's issues, than by studying what Jesus did.

The NT was a beautiful book, in my opinion, that taught us about godly living. The NT has in it universal truths.

i feel the message in the NT is open to debate. It is not often questioned, if many or most of the messages, like "Love me or Burn!" or "Dump Your Family" are a worthy or even anywhere near a 'good' messages from a 'good' god, or if some of the morals being put forth are 'good' ideas. To even explore or even question if this is the case-- that the NT is 'good' book--- the very question is sometimes met as "an insult", and often, for some christians, a brand new idea that maybe the message there is not often a 'good' one.

I could post many a NT bibleverse, which do not represent what most people see as 'good' family values, or very good morals. I feel the end result of believing in the bible, as being 'good' for a person, or a nation, is open to debate, too.

but, i can and will admit, there are some good ideas in the bible, too,------ but, they are nestled amongst so many absolutely horrific ideas, i find it amazing so many are able to successfully cherry pick the good bits out, and then declare that is a 'good' book, with 'good' ideas in it.

sometimes, we humans see

what we are told is there.

No one's belief in them should be trivialized.

The overwhelming power of christianity in this nation being trivialized, does not happen often, as this religion has been in power for eons, and influences govt. Almost no one can be elected, without frequently insisting they worship the bible gods. (very few exceptions) If a politician is suspected of not worshipping the bible gods, or not worshiping the bible gods enough, or any suspicions that the politician ever worshipped other gods instead of the bible gods, wow, there can be problems, depending on the state he/she lives in.

Hardly "trivialized" when it an impacts our govt and sometimes, even our legislation!! I do not see questioning something as same thing as "trivializing" something.

I am for respectful and rational discussions, and feel questioning can be part of that exploration.

PS---i hope i am correctly using the 'quote' feature, so this comes out right.

i am sitting here, face scrunched...

as i am not understanding why you would feel the need to politely condemn such a powerful source of comfort for aky/anyone?

why does it matter how she was introduced to the bible?

why does it matter about Jesus' political affiliations?

why should it matter that you consider Jesus very fallible, as the rest of man is?

there is nothing inherently wrong about your statements, jean.

for me though, there is a time and place to discuss it.

and when someone is sharing a profoundly personal story that brings tremendous comfort to this person, why do you consider that an appropriate time to subsequently belittle her stated source of comfort?

seriously, help me understand...because to me, your response was filled with scorn.

leslie

Many of your remarks, i feel i already addressed in posts above, so i will not repost the words again here, too. I do not 'condemn' her beliefs, i question how she came to accept the beliefs in the first place. I feel so long as one IS polite, it is okay to have a different POV, or to question the basis of how we ever came to accept some of our beliefs.

Not questioning these ideas had helped religions grow more powerful. I don't think having a different POV equates to 'scorn', but, some people do.

I was generous enough, that when someone stated earlier their son believes every part of the bible, that i did not list about a bazillion obvious false statements, contradictory statements, or severely, horrifically immoral parts of the bible. I skipped that.

but, that'd be a fun discussion to have someday.

Why discuss how Jesus might have reacted to today's issues? Well, I was just pointing out my favorite feature about Jesus, when i mentioned there are many qualities about Jesus that even i like. Some to many christians feel that "What would Jesus do?" is a guideline for today's issues. But, i can agree, there could be more rational ways to approach the issues of today, than by studying what would Jesus do.

Many people on the religious rightwing, should reconsider the legislations and attitudes they push while their wearing their religion on their sleeves, IF their attitudes even slightly resembles the examples given by the gods that they are wearing on their sleeves. Some politicians do openly state they vote by their religious beliefs/"brinigng god back to Washington"/"what would Jesus do", etc. Seems to be perverting what Jesus actually said and did, imo, and such politicians should be questioned how they can push such blatant cognitive dissonance.

but, overall, i am very much FOR complete, 500%, separation of religion and govt. So, sorry about that, i was just saying my favorite part about Jesus, was, his liberal views on almost every subject. Jesus was fairly consistent on those topics, too.

//" for me though, there is a time and place to discuss it."//

OH, i thought a public thread ABOUT GODS, was a good place to discuss gods, even if not everyone agrees. Contrary to how many people see it, i don't think having a different opinion, or even just questioning, are 'disrespectful' or wrong or offensive. I think it is sometimes the root of self-exploration or good discussions.

I do not see questioning or politely having a different POV as same thing as belittling, and do feel replying to her post to me, was a reasonable thing to do, even if i have questions about how one ends up participating in the religions that they participate in,

on a public thread

to explore ideas people have about gods.

why does it matter how she was introduced to the bible?

I think exploring how or why one came to believe the things they believe, is a good thing to regurgitate and reconsider now and then. But, many theists seem to think curiosity and questioning why or how they ever first came to believe what they believe ---is a bad idea.

(SOME forms of questioning are acceptable, it is in obvious agreement, or done as academic just 'fine tuning' with other theists who all basically agree the bible is 'good', or done to prepare the believer for facing things they might hear that don't click with what they've being taught, etc. so their beliefs they are taught don't fall apart)

But questioning why we believe things, where we got the idea in the first place, is often seen as bad idea by some theists, or even 'scornful'. I think exploring how we came to accept an idea as true, with no evidence, can be interesting discussion or even just a self-exploration to have, and should be encouraged.

//" why should it matter that you consider Jesus very fallible, as the rest of man is?"//

Why should it matter that you do think Jesus is a 'good' god?

^ *I* am not asking ^that, oh heavens no, i am not asking that!! don't blast me, i am not actually asking that.

but, i am just turning your own words a bit, so you can hear it might sound in reverse if i were to post that to someone who posted they thought Jesus is a good god. I think i might get slammed.

These two remarks, your remark, and my hypothetical remark below it,

kind of seem the same, imo,

but, in reverse, it feels different now, don't they? It almost sounds "scornful" to some extent, either remark....

btw, i was using the word "you" in a general sense, not you-YOU, Leslie, if that makes sense.

I often hear people state Jesus was some amazing example of how to live----------------- it almost never questioned. It seems to be almost universally accepted, that yes, that Jesus was good moral example to follow.

and i think it is worth exploring if that is true, or not. I think some of the things he was "for" are awesome, :) (as i listed above) :)

but, i also think some of the messages he put out, are not moral, not 'good', and worth exploring as possibly very bad ideas. But, mostly,

everyone has been convinced that Jesus is "good" example (many posts on threads saying that) but, i say, it's open to debate, if the either half of the bible ARE actually 'good' they way so many insist it is.

seriously, help me understand.

i HOPE i helped you understand. f i failed, i did try, anyway. I also hope i replied sloooowly enough to show respect.

there is nothing inherently wrong about your statements, jean.

THANK YOU.

peace out.

i believe you. The fact it was never brought up in your bible class, does not mean it's not true.

I didn't take "bible classes"; I took collegiate-level courses that allowed scholarly review of the Bible. My point was I had the opportunity to study the bible & Christianity in a less biased forum than in a church.

That is fine if you do not want to attempt evaluating how Jesus's words could apply to today's issues

Jean Marie, I have no problem being challenged on the topic at hand, & I have no problem with opposing views. My boyfriend of several years was an atheist. He never attempted to make me feel like my view was inferior & misguided though. I'm not saying that's what you intended.

I hope you return to the political threads. We need you there; you have been missed over the past few days.