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GrumpyRN GrumpyRN (Member)

Hobby Lobby

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Considering that the vast majority of members of Allnurses are female I am saddened, surprised and a little disappointed that I can find no comments about the ruling by SCOTUS concerning Hobby Lobby and the provision of contraception under the Affordable Care Act.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/health-care/scotus-sides-with-hobby-lobby-to-weaken-obamacare-mandate-20140630

I would have thought this was a prime target for discussion.

Remember, I am looking at this from a UK perspective. That a corporation can now be considered a person and that someone who has no medical experience can make decisions for women is just a bit scary.

A couple of the articles I have seen condemning this can be found here;

http://imthatchrisjenkins.com/hi-im-a-corporation-and-here-are-some-of-my-deeply-held-religious-beliefs/

and here;

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/30/religious-companies-opt-out-of-laws_n_5544582.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000013

I am not condemning anyone for holding religious beliefs, but this appears to me to be a follow on from my previous post about Benn Sasse. What happens when one person's, or in this case one families, beliefs impact on someone else.

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What is there to say. We need to review our impeachment remedies for an activist court.

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This is why employer based health insurance is not freedom at all and was part of the argument some put up against the notion of the USA having universal health care. This as far as I am concerned is part of the insidious creep of corporations pretending to be people/citizens and having feelings and therefore exerting power as they are "citizens" with bigger bank balances.

It appears that Hobby Lobbys morals are quite different when birth control and abortion pills can make them money.....

Hobby Lobby's Hypocrisy: The Company's Retirement Plan Invests in Contraception Manufacturers | Mother Jones

When Obamacare compelled businesses to include emergency contraception in employee health care plans, Hobby Lobby, a national chain of craft stores, fought the law all the way to the Supreme Court. The Affordable Care Act's contraception mandate, the company's owners argued, forced them to violate their religious beliefs. But while it was suing the government, Hobby Lobby spent millions of dollars on an employee retirement plan that invested in the manufacturers of the same contraceptive products the firm's owners cite in their lawsuit.

Proving to me that their objection was not based on any kind of morality, only the kind that might cost them some money.

Of course, the majority opinion of the court all came from men. It seems in the United States that some men can't abide the fact that women might have some control over their own reproduction. The majority of Christian women do use birth control.

I particularly liked this part of Justice Ginsburgs dissent;

Would the exemption the Court holds RFRA demands for employers with religiously grounded objections to the use of certain contraceptives extend to employers with religiously grounded objections to blood transfusions (Jehovah’s Witnesses); antidepressants (Scientologists); medications derived from pigs, including anesthesia, intravenous fluids, and pills coated with gelatin (certain Muslims, Jews, and Hindus); and vaccinations (Christian Scientists, among others)?

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/06/30/us/annotated-supreme-court-hobby-lobby-contraception-decision.html

Thanks for bringing up the discussion. It's certainly worth talking about.

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I have been pummelled on another site by mostly women who think that my belief that HL and others have the right to not provide free birth control (and they have conveniently omitted or were too ignorant to remember that HL is fine with 16 of 20 kinds of BC meds on the "list") makes me a barbarian.

Birth Control isn't going away. But when 16 of 20 kinds are still available from HL, what is the real problem? And free? Absolutely no reason for that. In my opinion.

And of course, those who are going to boycott HL will have a real conundrum on their hands when they learn that HL pays their employees well over the minimum wage.....thus making the argument for free BC even weaker.

I won't post further here. Just because.

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Even more ironic is that so much of Hobby Lobby's stuff is made in China, where abortion is legal, openly performed and in some cases encouraged by the government.

It's fine for the founder to have beliefs and live according to them. But the founder is a person, the business he runs is not. To say a business is 'Christian', I may as well say my kitchen table is a Christian too.

Edited by ElvishDNP

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I have been pummelled on another site by mostly women who think that my belief that HL and others have the right to not provide free birth control (and they have conveniently omitted or were too ignorant to remember that HL is fine with 16 of 20 kinds of BC meds on the "list") makes me a barbarian.

Birth Control isn't going away. But when 16 of 20 kinds are still available from HL, what is the real problem? And free? Absolutely no reason for that. In my opinion.

And of course, those who are going to boycott HL will have a real conundrum on their hands when they learn that HL pays their employees well over the minimum wage.....thus making the argument for free BC even weaker.

I won't post further here. Just because.

This issue at hand has nothing to do with the fact that they provide some forms of BC; the issue is that a business is making a religious decision to limit what products/ treatments insurance companies will reimburse. This opens the floodgates to similar limitations on a variety of treatments based on religion, such as pig-derived medical products being prohibited due to the business owner being Jewish. Religion has no place making personal health decisions for company employees.

And no, I do not at all feel that I am in a "conundrum" for boycotting Hobby Lobby just because they pay their employees more than minimum wage. What they are doing is wrong. Plain and simple.

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Even more ironic is that so much of Hobby Lobby's stuff is made in China, where abortion is legal, openly performed and in some cases encouraged by the government.

It's fine for the founder to have beliefs and live according to them. But the founder is a person, the business he runs is not. To say a business is 'Christian', I may as well say my kitchen table is a Christian too.

The thing that gets me is the majority of women working for Hobby Lobby are probably Christian as well (an assumption based on the majority of the US identifies as Christian) and STILL want birth control. They are not advocating for the beliefs of their employees, they're advocating the beliefs of the owners, period. Another business making it clear they don't give a flip about their employees, taking it all the way to the SCOTUS to prove it. Humans are nothing but commodities to be bought and sold.

I've got no problem with someone owning a business and making a profit. I do have a problem with it if their profit is to the detriment of others. One can do well for oneself and one's community at the same time. We see stories in the news of an individual robbing another individual and call for justice. That thief just profitably benefited from another person's humiliation, fear and pain, and we are outraged and demand they be imprisoned. A lot of the time they are. But when large groups with large amounts of money do essentially the same thing to AN ENTIRE WORKFORCE, nobody with any clout says boo. Hopefully the grassroots movement fighting back is able to make a difference with this (yes, I'm helping!).

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I have been pummelled on another site by mostly women who think that my belief that HL and others have the right to not provide free birth control (and they have conveniently omitted or were too ignorant to remember that HL is fine with 16 of 20 kinds of BC meds on the "list") makes me a barbarian.

Birth Control isn't going away. But when 16 of 20 kinds are still available from HL, what is the real problem? And free? Absolutely no reason for that. In my opinion.

And of course, those who are going to boycott HL will have a real conundrum on their hands when they learn that HL pays their employees well over the minimum wage.....thus making the argument for free BC even weaker.

I won't post further here. Just because.

Considering the employees likely pay a couple hundred dollars a month into their plans I really doubt they would consider what those plans provide to be "free". A couple hundred a month is arguably a lot of money.

So would it be OK for the HL employees to use their "well over minimum wage" pay to buy birth control? How is that really any different than an employee using their health insurance to buy BC, both the health insurance and the wages are provided by the employer, right?

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I also read that HL's 401(k) is heavily invested in big pharma companies that manufactures the very medications that they object too. Another friend posted something about the age-old argument about covering viagra and the like as well. No reason for viagra other than sex. There are other uses for hormonal medications such as the Pill.

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Considering the employees likely pay a couple hundred dollars a month into their plans I really doubt they would consider what those plans provide to be "free". A couple hundred a month is arguably a lot of money.

So would it be OK for the HL employees to use their "well over minimum wage" pay to buy birth control? How is that really any different than an employee using their health insurance to buy BC, both the health insurance and the wages are provided by the employer, right?

In other discussions a couple hundred dollars a month for health insurance is very reasonable. Only a small part of the premium would be needed to pay for the BC pills that HL is happy to endorse.

I saw nothing in the decision that indicates employees have no right to spend their earnings how they choose. Rulings that force people to spend their earnings in a certain way are the individual mandate and tax laws.

BTW, HL starts full time employees at $14/hr. If Liberals didn't hate them so they'd probably use them as an example of why a higher minimum wage is possible.

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