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Don't buy a dog, not any dog at all.

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You are reading page 9 of Don't buy a dog, not any dog at all.. If you want to start from the beginning Go to First Page.

Was this owner NEW to the dog? what!? Or is this dog less than one year old so owner was not yet fully aware of who her dog is yet?

 

 

This dog and client were new to us. We had seen neither one of them before. The client has had this dog for three years and knew about the behavior issue. She just failed to tell me. Good thing that I'm fast. I talked to her about training and behavior modification to help with the issue. She wasn't interested. She said that this was a shelter rescue that had been "abused" so therefore he just couldn't be trained. Some people are idiots. Sadly we see our share of them and many of them have "rescues" that they don't think can be trained because of their past. I've always felt that most dogs are smarter then their owners.

Fuzzy

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Was this owner NEW to the dog? what!? Or is this dog less than one year old so owner was not yet fully aware of who her dog is yet?

 

 

This dog and client were new to us. We had seen neither one of them before. The client has had this dog for three years and knew about the behavior issue. She just failed to tell me. Good thing that I'm fast. I talked to her about training and behavior modification to help with the issue. She wasn't interested. She said that this was a shelter rescue that had been "abused" so therefore he just couldn't be trained. Some people are idiots. Sadly we see our share of them and many of them have "rescues" that they don't think can be trained because of their past. I've always felt that most dogs are smarter then their owners.

Fuzzy

oH, Fuzzy, how disheartening, i so agree!! If you do see her again, maybe ask her to google "kikopup shy dogs". Kikopup has great advice and exercises for helping shy dogs, and her videos are super short, only a few minutes, and easy to understand, too, even if one doesn't know much about dogs, Kikopup can provide some starting exercises to try.

Here is one of Kikopups (emily's) exercises to help shy dogs.

(if this is a shy dog, who knows, but, if it dislikes strangers TOUCHING the dog, it might be, at any rate, Kikopup is "positive only" and her exercises would not cause any harm, and might help that person)

there are many ways to approach helping dogs with issues, and some methods are harmful/makes dogs worse, if person doesn't understand what they are doing.

btw, many of the dogs i work with, are AKC registered expensive lil pups, not rescues at all. I've seem some rescues with this, but, often rescues are picked out AS ADULTS, so such dogs are avoided, (if not put down)as even a layman or dog novice might avoid such dogs. It's hard to miss spotting either disorder in the adult dog, when you reach for it, and it ducks or growls, or bites! Or, when you walk the dog down the aisle, the dog lunges viscously at the other dogs, kinda hard to miss noticing all that.

but, some humans see 'shy' dogs as charming, and have no clue what shyness can escalate to, and do choose shy dogs on purpose, cuz they don't know, just being nice to the dog won't change it's neurobiology.

Abuse doesn't cause either one of the disorders,(not a persistent form of it) as tons and tons and tons of stories of dogs rescued from all manner of abuse, or lack of socialization, or neglect, can testify to.....as these dogs stand there, loving every human and every dog. Anyone NOT know of the 100s and 100s of such stories??

Even 95% of Vick's dogs turned out to be 'normal' brained dogs and defaulted back to normal' brained behavior after being rescued, and loved everyone and every dog once rescued.

Edited by somenurse

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really, it's my opinion, that of all the possible things one can have wrong with a dog, taking home a pup that grows up to be either a shy dog, or a dog-aggressive dog, can be the most difficult of all issues. Even more devastating to providing a good life for the dog, than many health disorders, imo. especially when the owners are told "you did this, it's your fault this dog is not right"

easiest way to avoid having eitlher type of the two most common, most difficult, most dangerous dog behavioral disorders,

is,

rescue an ADULT dog.

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btw, i should point out, that not every dog who bites a human, nor every dog who bites another dog, has a disorder. that seems it's too obvious to even bear pointing out, but, just in case someone thinks, "Wow, Aunt Mabel's dog bit my nephew that one time....wonder if Fluffy has a neurobiological disorder?"

nope, sometimes, the dog "is right" or had few other options. Even a normal-brained dog, can, in the worst of scenarios, be driven to bite. Not all bites indicate a problem dog, is my point.

My dog stopped biting everyone a few weeks after i got him, hasn't bit anyone in years, even if they start IVs, even if they cut his nails, even if they lean over him or pick him up, no matter what, my dog is now very tolerant dog, is stoked to greet anyone at all now, just LOVES everyone, very tail waggy for anyone at all, loves to be petted now.

but,

like any other dog, if you took my dog, and just pestered him, cornered him, poked his eyes, screamed in his face, or whatever, ignored his warnings and signals he isn't liking it, who knows, he might eventually nip you, if he is not allowed to leave away. I think it'd take my dog a long long long time to muster up the whatever to bite anyone, and he'd give tons of growls first, to try avoid biting, but, any dog could be driven to bite in the perfect storm of wrong moves.

When i refer to dogs with disorders

I am referring to an ongoing, PERSISTENT and verrrrry consistent behavior of inappropriate aggression to humans, like the shy dog, also called "fear-aggressive" dog, who might bite an unknown human who touches it

--- or---

ongoing, persistent, consistent aggressive reactions to dogs, like the dog-aggressive dog, who tends to react, lunge at, or even bite most unknown dogs.. It is an ongoing, persistent inappropriate behavior, which can be dangerous for children, or even adults, to be around.

and, it usually "most" and not always "all" unknown creatures...... some shy dogs can warm up to this or that unknown human, and some DA dogs can warm up to this or that unknown dog,

all by their selves, without any help at all. It's not real common, but, it can happen, and it's always huge thrill for the dog's owner when this happens.

also, a shy dog can much tolerate and enjoy it's own human, and a DA dog can love his own canine housemates. It is usually the UNKNOWN human or dog that sets these two kinds of dogs off. There is a wire plugged in wrong somewhere in either type of dog.....they are very very difficult for their owners to live with, in many ways.

Edited by somenurse

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I said my dog can and wil tree a coon, and bark til i arrive there....and many many other dogs will also do that. I said, i have no way of knowing if my dog would bark for "days" til someone arrives, (i would not want my dog to go that long without water,:no: for one thing).

How is this a wrong remark, when it is true? This is pretty common canine behavior, really, but, again, i have no way to know if my dog would stay there for "days" as he comes indoors every night. Lol, i've seen dachsunds tree squirrels, and stay there barking and barking and barking, til the owner arrives.

really, a LOT of dogs do this.

Can a shelter dog be trained to follow a scent several days old to lead rescuers to a lost child like a bloodhound? Can a labrador mix be trained to run down the swift and long legged deer like the deerhound? Can a beagal mix stand long nights of cold and snow while he guards his flock like the great pyrenees, or keep the young from being dragged off by coyotes? Certain hunting breeds, such as the golden retriever, is used specifically because they can retrieve delicate things, such as bird, without crunching or eating them. This is something that has been bred into them and does not have to be trained.

So what if a person rescues a dog to be trained for something specific, but that dog is unable to learn this behavior? Hunting, search and rescue, etc? Should they get another dog, and that one isn't cut out either, so try another? Then they are stuck with several dogs or has to send them back. Why do you think search and rescue, the military, the police, guide dog trainers, etc use certain breeds? Because those breeds are inheritantly awesome at what they do and respond well the the extensive and expensive training they will require to be good at their job.

There is a place for every breed, which is why there were bred to have the characteristics they do. Some were bred for seemingly no purpose than individual entertainment, but most have a purpose and as you know, dogs looooove to have a purpose.

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Can a shelter dog be trained to follow a scent several days old to lead rescuers to a lost child like a bloodhound? Can a labrador mix be trained to run down the swift and long legged deer like the deerhound? Can a beagal mix stand long nights of cold and snow while he guards his flock like the great pyrenees, or keep the young from being dragged off by coyotes? Certain hunting breeds, such as the golden retriever, is used specifically because they can retrieve delicate things, such as bird, without crunching or eating them. This is something that has been bred into them and does not have to be trained.

So what if a person rescues a dog to be trained for something specific, but that dog is unable to learn this behavior? Hunting, search and rescue, etc? Should they get another dog, and that one isn't cut out either, so try another? Then they are stuck with several dogs or has to send them back. Why do you think search and rescue, the military, the police, guide dog trainers, etc use certain breeds? Because those breeds are inheritantly awesome at what they do and respond well the the extensive and expensive training they will require to be good at their job.

There is a place for every breed, which is why there were bred to have the characteristics they do. Some were bred for seemingly no purpose than individual entertainment, but most have a purpose and as you know, dogs looooove to have a purpose.

Multiple times, in several posts, on most every page of this thread, i have addressed my opinion about those who do need a working dog. Repeatedly, at length, in great detail.

Please scroll back.

I feel i have been asked, and have answered, this question, many many times during this thread. I feel i have made many great points about how *some* people who need a certain type of WORKING dog, may have a rational reason to buy their dog. Still, i feel most types of service dogs, can be from shelters.

Most americans are looking for pets. MOst americans don't really train their dogs to do much more than walk nicely on a leash(and some humans can't conquer that!) and sit.:( Darn shame. when these people meet a dog like mine, they suspect there is something almost magical about the dog, nope! He is just trained!!

Shelter dogs ARE BEING TRAINED to do all types of service work. Why do some people NOT know about this??

http://www.servicedogs.org/newsletters/december_11/

http://www.freedomservicedogs.org/

http://www.kxan.com/dpp/entertainment/dogs/shelter-dogs-to-become-service-dogs

http://www.leashesandlovers.com/GeneralBlogs/blogtails/BizTopDog/140/Shelter%20Dogs%20to%20Service%20Dogs%20colon%20Paws%20Giving%20Independence

I could post link after link,

video after video,

of shelter dogs who are now service dogs---sniffing out fire excelerants, finding dead bodies, or finding cancer cells, missing people, or being assistance dogs of all types,for the blind, the deaf, epileptics, etc, or as guard dogs, name it! Shelter dogs can be trained to do most anything!!!

..... why don't people know this?

I think it is kinda cute, that some humans, having little experience actually training complex behaviors to dogs, somehow seem to think, THAT dog must be 'special' or somehow maybe evne 'born that way',:lol2: or 'born with some special gifts" or something.

Most of us dog trainers chuckle together, that when others see what our dogs can do, always say, "What a smart dog!"

apparently not realizing, the dog was TRAINED by us to do those things, and we can train most any dogs to do exact same things.

as if the dog figured out how to do these behaviors by themselves or something!

Most humans underestimate their own dogs, imo. I've trained some dogs that their owners thought were "dumb" dogs, and the owners were STUNNED to see their plain old mutt dog doing this or that.

most people do NOT understand much about training dogs, imo. I think this contributes to the notion, that some type of 'breeding' is involved in well trained service dogs, but, nothing could be further from the truth. Same dog + no training, could be mistaken for a "dumb" dog.

My own rescue dog, is a therapy dog at a local nursing home, and could be trained to be an assistance dog, too. My dog has THE keenest nose, and has been trained by me to find various items, he ROCKS at it, and i've always thought he'd be a great search and rescue dog, or one of those dogs trained to find dead people or cancerous cells.

If you've never ever trained a dog to "find"

you might be stunned at how great most dogs are at that!! Oh, dogs love that!! It does NOT take a bloodhound to find an object!! Almost all dogs have a sense of smell that is 400 times what we humans have, and i have to yet to meet the dog i can't train to "find".

I am not sure i am "for" leaving dogs for "days" without water, in any circumstances.

Why do so many people seem to think one has to "buy" a dog if they want the dog to be well trained? Why do so many humans seem to think, if one wants a dog to belong to a certain breed, that they have to "buy" the dog to get that breed? wha?

Petstopeople, you mention a few various breeds---If someone wants a deerhound (many states have laws regarding hunting in that manner, btw) there are deerhounds on petfinders, too. There are over 33,000 golden retrievers on Petfinders today, hoping someone gives them a chance.

//"

So what if a person rescues a dog to be trained for something specific, but that dog is unable to learn this behavior? Hunting, search and rescue, etc?"//

you say that, as if one buys a puppy, there is some guarantee the puppy will grow up to have the characteristics you want. what if the person buys a dog, falls in love with that dog, but, is unable to train the dog to do what they want done? What then?

I strongly believe, more and more, that many to most dog owners do not have any idea of the bazillions of things we can train dogs to do.

It seems, way way too many people seem to be suggesting, that an AKC paper, or that seeing the parents have some ability or training,

equates to the puppy will be juuuuuust like the parents!! Lol, not true. OH, it's not, all dogs are unique individuals, even from the same litter, not all the same.

best way to know who the dog will be when he is grown up,

Is adopt an adult dog.

And, the chances of bringing home a pup who later manifests the two most difficult issues,

"SHY" dogs (or "fear aggressive")

or

dog-aggressive dogs,

is wayyyyyyyyyy higher if you choose a pup, as neither disorder is visible in the litter box.

Dogs with either disorder are not well suited for most kinds of service work, but if you are buying a pup, no way to know if you got one of those dogs...til it approaches maturity and manifests...

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If a dog is unable to learn a behavior, the fault is with the human. Learning how dogs learn, is not well understood by many people. I have occasionally hit roadblocks training a dog to do this or that, and posted here for help:

Dog Trick Academy - Fresh Dog Tricks Ideas for Dog Owners

and got some help trouble shooting what *I* was doing wrong, or another approach to try, and WA-LA!! I got the dog to learn it.

I think

Most humans

would be STUNNED to discover how fun it is, how easy it is, to teach a dog things, be it tricks, or cues, or tasks,

training your dog is FUN FUN FUN!! OH THE DOGS LOVE LOVE LOVE IT!! Five minute a day, your dog CAN learn things!!

(i feel most common mistake beginners make, is--------having TOO long of a lesson. For real, for beginner dogs, 5 to 10 minutes is plenty til dog builds up his att'n span. and Positive only, NO scolding in dog training!!"

My own dog, is so so addicted to "lessons", he HAS TO have training, every day,or he gets antsy. Having "lessons" is part of his "job". He HAS TO have a chance to use his brain now, or he gets restless. Many dogs are same way, once you begin training them, the dog almost has to have his lessons to feel satisfied.

i run out of ideas, he knows over 120 tricks and cues, agility, the precision heelwork and doggie dancing, knows 100s of words, excels at "nosework" as we call it, can get a beer outa the fridge, fetch many items by name, evne if hidden!! and can even do a card trick!

can herd if he gets the chance, (ha, we teach the dogs the cues by starting with chairs in a circle, then advance to sheep in a round fence, and THEN have dog do the cues around actual, unfenced sheep, ha ha)

He knows tons of useful cues, too, and can even do long distance cues (is kind of a thing among dog trainers to teach a dog to do long-distance cues)

and yes, he was in the deathrow box at a dog pound.

anyway, i absolutely run out of ideas of NEW things to teach him (name it, my dog can do it) so i go here

Dog Trick Academy - Fresh Dog Tricks Ideas for Dog Owners

for more ideas of things i can teach my dog next. Join there, and learn about how EASY it is to train a dog to do anything!! you might be stunned!!

Edited by somenurse

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because so many humans DO think if a dog can do tricks or cues, that THE DOG is somehow superior or different in some way,

that i sometimes volunteer at local pound to teach their dogs some tricks, cuz the human sees the dog doing the tricks or cues, the human thinks "wow, a SMART dog!" :roflmao:

but, near as i can tell, most any dog can be trained to do most anything at all.

No AKC paper required at all.

Edited by somenurse

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Don't blame me for not being able to read every detail of your extensive posts, it's just about impossible.

 

"Shelter dogs ARE BEING TRAINED to do all types of service work."

Sure, ones that are thoroughly tested and display certain intrinsic traits that will enable them to respond to and excel at whatever job they are being chosen for.

"If a dog is unable to learn a behavior, the fault is with the human."

 

So your trying to say that basically any dog can be taught ANY behavior, if taught correctly? I guess any human can become a top neurosurgeon, submarine captain or prima ballerina with the proper training......:/ Some people are just inheritantly great at certain things, some are not.

As a species, despite what we are capable of, we are generally very ignorant and slow to change. This problem will not be changed by telling people not to purchase dogs, or by attacking breeders or the AKC, whether you agree with them or no. The problem can be reduced by helping people get past the stigma and issues that come with trying to adopt or rescue a pet and to help them with training so they will keep their pets and not abandon them.

I have looked into trying to rescue pets, but was never able to meet their extensive requirements...fenced yard, no small children, no apartment. When a family goes to adopt from a shelter, the people are generally stuck up, rarely helpful, the noise is ear splitting, you see all these dogs on their worst behavior and if you are lucky you get to spend a little time in a somewhat quiet area where you get to see if you and your family are willing to commit the next 10 plus years to this pet. Some changes are needed.

I understand that rescues and shelters want to pet to get the best possible home and to not have to be returned, but in this process they limit hundreds upon hundreds of possibly good homes for often unnecessary reasons. I don't care if a person is so poor that they will never be able to take the pet to a vet for vaccines, cannot afford heartworm prevention or if the pet will have to be euthanized years later because it requires some type of expensive surgery or treatment. The pet will be spayed/neutered by the shelter, so no risk of contributing to the overpopulation problem, otherwise, if they will love the pet and keep them reasonably safe, such as not letting them run loose down the road everyday, then whats the problem?

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//"Don't blame me for not being able to read every detail of your extensive posts, it's just about impossible."//

OHhhh, sorry, see, i am a reader, i can read ENTIRE BOOKS!!!!! so a few paragraphs is a cinch for .me But there is much being said nowadays about the multiple factors(facebook, twitter, cell phones, etc)

contributing to more and more humans developing an aversion to reading, and preferring twitter level, bumper-sticker type bits of info instead of books, or even instead of a few paragraphs. I'm old school, i do read.

I am sincerely trying to answer anyone who asks me anything at all, but, some things seem more complicated to me than slogan sized replies.

//"Sure, ones that are thoroughly tested and display certain intrinsic traits that will enable them to respond to and excel at whatever job they are being chosen for."//

Not necessarily true. at all. MIne wasn't. The dogs i work with, weren't. LIke i keep saying, most humans underestimate their dogs ability to learn,

and most humans do not understand how to get a dog to learn.

at all.

and again, most humans do not train their dogs at all. MOst humans are looking for pets. And if it is a breed-specific trait the human wants, most any breed can be found at Petfinders (even deerhounds, even golden retrievers). Most humans don't realize how widely distributed most of what they feel are "breed specific" traits are, though, among most all dogs. Like treeing an animal and barking, wow, hard to find a dog that WON'T do that, really.

DOGS DO NOT NOT NOT NOT NEED AN AKC PAPER TO LEARN STUFF. THIS IS A MYTH.

Most humans reading along are interested in pets, and the one thing i personally think is most difficult in pet dogs, is having one

that is a "shy" dog (also called 'fear aggressive')

or

a dog-aggressive dog. No way to spot either disorder in the litter box. but, by age one year old, oh wow! hard to miss seeing it, even for a dog-novice, these dogs are VERY obviously 'not right'. so,

to avoid ending up with the most difficult of all types of dogs, adopt an adult dog, see who the dog IS prior to bringing him home!!

//"So your trying to say that basically any dog can be taught ANY behavior, if taught correctly?"//

 

Pretty much, this is true. Amazing, isn't it??

limited mostly by the human's ability to learn how to get a dog to learn. It depends far far more on the HUMAN's ability and understanding, than the dogs.

and

LIke i've said a few times, if one does need or want a certain breed, is 90% chance that breed IS on PETFINDER.

Re the submarine captains, I do not find the dogs brains to be as complex as the human brain, i don't much go in for that type of anthropomorphism. I don't find the factors involving a dog to succeed, to be as complex as the multifaceted reasons a human might succeed. I do think most humans have never ever reached their full potential.

//"As a species, despite what we are capable of, we are generally very ignorant and slow to change"//

This is no reason to not try to educate people, that yes, a shelter dog is a great option, for 100s of reasons, for most humans. but, i readily admit, some humans do dig in their heels, and refuse to consider a new idea, that is very true. It is a much slower process for some types of humans to absorb or accept a new idea, than for other types of humans. Still, i like to try to think of my fellow man as having potential

and when there is potential, we can have hope for improvement.

//"The problem can be reduced by helping people get past the stigma and issues that come with trying to adopt or rescue a pet "//

I COULD NOT AGREE MORE!! (stands up and cheers)

CLAPPING-GIF.gif

^OH, they are supposed to be clapping...sorry.

ps, the tail end of your post, about dog pounds having rules, has also been addressed extensively on previous pages. An ethical breeder always vets their clients, too, btw. I *think* each and every complaint you list, whether it's actually true or not, has been addressed on other pages...

If i were to REaddress that all over again, it might be too many words for you. You might be surprised at some of my answers to those complaints.

Edited by somenurse

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PetstoPeople, you seem a big fan of dogs, near as i can tell. So am i.

One of the biggest surprises to me, was after years of loving dogs, and thinking i 'understood' dogs, was finding out how much dogs LOVE to learn things, even silly things!! JUST FOR THE SAKE OF LEARNING!! Just for the chance to 'accomplish' stuff, just for the chance of using their own brain, just the joy of problem solving, just for the intense, all positive joy of that type of interaction.

Most dogs actually beam after they've figured it out, they KNOW they did good, they beam! IT'S ADORABLE!!! so so cute, i always end up laughing at my dogs' most obvious pride in his new accomplishment, it's too too cute to see!!

oh, the things *I* LEARN, while training a dog (any dog).

I strongly encourage you, if you DO have a dog, or access to a dog, to learn how to train a dog to do something. (can be anything, from "bring me my keys" to coming when called reliabley, to weaving between your legs, to precision heelwork, to rollover) probably start with something kinda easy at first, til you get the hang of how do we teach something to a dog.

Do consider joining up here:

Dog Trick Academy - Fresh Dog Tricks Ideas for Dog Owners

pick out a trick or a cue, and spend FIVE MINUTES a day, teaching your dog something. THEN you will maybe see what i am talking about. Warning: it is addicting, for both you, and for the dog. It's all positive, no scolding, no corections at all! none! no jerking the dog around, nothing but

reward what you DO want the dog to do,

and ignore wrong moves. This is also how wild killer whales are taught, too.

and tigers....and chickens, and i have a pal who has clicker-trained her pet rat!! for real, give it a whirl, let me know what you think after you've trained some complex things to you dog. If you hit a roadblock, post it here

Dog Trick Academy - Fresh Dog Tricks Ideas for Dog Owners

and someone will be by to help you trouble shoot why your efforts are failing. It DOES take a while for THE HUMAN to learn juuuust how to get a dog to learn, but, it's pretty quick for THE DOG!! HA HA!! Your understanding of dogs will increase by 50000% i promise.

Edited by somenurse

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