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Don't buy a dog, not any dog at all.

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You are reading page 6 of Don't buy a dog, not any dog at all.. If you want to start from the beginning Go to First Page.

"show me a breed that is NOT a designer dog.."

Carolina Dogs (the real ones with the distinct behavioral traits, not the feral lab-mix-types)

Pariahs

Basenji (the root stock in Africa)

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I disagree. I will never “adopt” a dog from a rescue again. Partly because of the attitudes of so many of the people who push adoption, partly because too many “rescues” are nothing more than alternative marketing entities for unethical breeders particularly puppy mills, partly because I have no desire to support organizations that want to shut down ethical breeders or that push policies that would shut them down (like pushing messages such as never buy a dog), partly for other reasons, and mostly because I have no desire to co-own my dog which is all the semi-palatable (read – notalternative marketing entities for unethical breeders) rescue organizations will allow.

I willlook for an ethical breeder when and if I am ready for another dog.

Partly because I want the (sensible) health checks and puppy immunizations, and, yes, Iknow there are thousands of perfectly healthy dogs on death row but I don’tknow which ones they are and, for the most part, neither does anyone else.

Partly because I want the well-done early socialization. And, yes, I know there arethousands of beautifully tempered dogs in the pounds but, again, I don’t knowwhich ones they are and my experience has been that rescuers aren’t muchhelp. Often because they don’t know nearly as much as they think they do and/or they are so bent on their mission that they miss on stuff they might actually know. I also know a bad early start can be overcome. I know how to do it; I’ve successfully done it. I don’t like doing it. Given achoice I would not have a dog rather than do that. I take care of the issues that come up with my dogs, whatever they are, but I see no reason to jump into the pool when Idon’t want to swim.

Partly because I support the ethical breeding of dogs because I don’t like whathappens when there are too few ethical breeders. I think “ethical” includes a lot of thingsthat most people probably don’t (like variety in the gene pool – such as mixing English/American &/or field/bench strains of labs) and doesn’t include a lot that most people probably do (like AKC – I’m not opposed to registering, just to the agenda intrinsic to the show world and the bottle-necked genetic pools).

And yes, I have taken dogs and cats from their kennels to (well, it wasn’t a gaschamber, it was anesthetic followed by lethel injection) on many days as Iworked as a kennel attendant (cleaned, fed, watered, mostly. Also bathed, walked, comforted, groomed fur and nails, gave medicine to, and moved forvarious reasons, and on and on). I’ve shed tears over it also, although I didn’t give many (any?) of them a last hug…they usually don’t like that under the best of circumstances and after theyknow you well, it adds to their stress, and, for most of the dogs and cats in that situation - it is a pretty sure fire way of getting bitten.

So, I guess I get to talk? I also think pushing rescue to the exclusion of common sense is a somewhat strange agenda. A speutered house mutt in the home of an intact dog isn’t going to add to the population.

Incidentally,there is nothing wrong with wanting an easy dog – easy grooming, easyexercising, easy training (ultra willing and somewhat dumb), easy to live with (laid back and absolutely no baggage),easy vet visits. I’ve had rough-coated collies, border collies, in-your-face-attitudes-all-the-time boneheads, fearful projects - and thoroughly enjoyed all of them in the times and places they each were mine. But the alternatives can be even better and are certainly more appropriate for most families.

Edited by Saysfaa

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Well written Sasfaa. I too have put many an animal on that euthanasia table for that last injection. Chambers are illegal in the state. I also want to come home to dogs that are nice to live with with very little baggage. (I don't know many nurses that want to tell many of their patients where they live or have coffee with daily) My day and sometimes night job invovles working with hard to handle dogs that are owned by other people. Yesterday, I almost took a bite to the face because of an unsable dog. I prefer to go home and not have the same fight. There is nothing wrong with having a well bred puppy that can be trained into a nice dog. I have had some really nice shelter dogs but I've learned to put my emotions aside when I choose one. Again there are many that I would not be able to live with in my situation. Plus once the dog crosses my threshold it is here for life unless some really drastic happens so the dog has to be liveable in my circumstances.

Fuzzy

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The well written discussions on the positive aspects of good breeders is important. My older sister took in shelter Dobies and other big dogs. Everyone of them had terrible genetic issues. She would start with a starved, scared dog and could train it to be a therapy dog but could not change the outcome for that dog. The genes would kill them in terrible ways.

A few years ago she recognized that her latest therapy dog was getting more debilitated. She decided to get a puppy so the old dog would train it. She bought a beauty of a Dobie. Got it half price because it happens to be a relative of my late husband. This kennel is well known and is great. Every dog has a lifetime guarantee. No tight genetic background. Every dog's pedigree is great and varied to keep the best part of the breed in good shape.

This is the first dog she has not had as a rescue. It is also the first dog without terrible genes. There are good reasons to buy a dog. I love my rescued dog and would get another from a shelter but I recognize what I have. I do not have a fine specimen of the breed. She does have some genetic issues that I know about. Since she will not have pups and so far these issues have not been problematic I have no problem with it.

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"show me a breed that is NOT a designer dog.."

Carolina Dogs (the real ones with the distinct behavioral traits, not the feral lab-mix-types)

Pariahs

Basenji (the root stock in Africa)

Carolinas are not recognized by the AKC. Hopefully, they never will be. Being recongized, and then, having multiple humans select often arbitrary measurements to strive for, and using small gene pools, can contribute to the destruction of the breed.

But two points, for finding a 2 or 3 breeds of dogs who are natural, however, i hope very very much, that having humans providing an unnatrually small gene pool to meet the AKC beauty contest standards will not ruin those breeds.

but, the other bazillion breeds are all designer dogs.

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I also want to come home to dogs that are nice to live with with very little baggage.

Fuzzy

This is why my husband and I have evolved into cat people.Together we have had a couple of dogs but they are both gone now and we have become a volunteer foster family for a feline rescue.Nothing is more rewarding then raising a litter of kittens and seeing them go to their forever home.My husband even keeps a scrap book ( he calls himself the cat whisperer) If I am stuck pulling a double I know the family will be fine-one of them can even open the container of dry food and feed them all.Smart bunch. I loved our dogs but it was like having a toddler.I won't have another until I am -at the very least- semi retired. We give a lot to our friends and in return they give us much more -Seeing them lined up in the picture window when I pull into the driveway is my reward.

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I disagree. I will never “adopt” a dog from a rescue again. Partly because of the attitudes of so many of the people who push adoption, partly because too many “rescues” are nothing more than alternative marketing entities for unethical breeders particularly puppy mills, partly because I have no desire to support organizations that want to shut down ethical breeders or that push policies that would shut them down (like pushing messages such as never buy a dog), partly for other reasons, and mostly because I have no desire to co-own my dog which is all the semi-palatable (read – notalternative marketing entities for unethical breeders) rescue organizations will allow.

I willlook for an ethical breeder when and if I am ready for another dog.

Partly because I want the (sensible) health checks and puppy immunizations, and, yes, Iknow there are thousands of perfectly healthy dogs on death row but I don’tknow which ones they are and, for the most part, neither does anyone else.

Partly because I want the well-done early socialization. And, yes, I know there arethousands of beautifully tempered dogs in the pounds but, again, I don’t knowwhich ones they are and my experience has been that rescuers aren’t muchhelp. Often because they don’t know nearly as much as they think they do and/or they are so bent on their mission that they miss on stuff they might actually know. I also know a bad early start can be overcome. I know how to do it; I’ve successfully done it. I don’t like doing it. Given achoice I would not have a dog rather than do that. I take care of the issues that come up with my dogs, whatever they are, but I see no reason to jump into the pool when Idon’t want to swim.

Partly because I support the ethical breeding of dogs because I don’t like whathappens when there are too few ethical breeders. I think “ethical” includes a lot of thingsthat most people probably don’t (like variety in the gene pool – such as mixing English/American &/or field/bench strains of labs) and doesn’t include a lot that most people probably do (like AKC – I’m not opposed to registering, just to the agenda intrinsic to the show world and the bottle-necked genetic pools).

And yes, I have taken dogs and cats from their kennels to (well, it wasn’t a gaschamber, it was anesthetic followed by lethel injection) on many days as Iworked as a kennel attendant (cleaned, fed, watered, mostly. Also bathed, walked, comforted, groomed fur and nails, gave medicine to, and moved forvarious reasons, and on and on). I’ve shed tears over it also, although I didn’t give many (any?) of them a last hug…they usually don’t like that under the best of circumstances and after theyknow you well, it adds to their stress, and, for most of the dogs and cats in that situation - it is a pretty sure fire way of getting bitten.

So, I guess I get to talk? I also think pushing rescue to the exclusion of common sense is a somewhat strange agenda. A speutered house mutt in the home of an intact dog isn’t going to add to the population.

Incidentally,there is nothing wrong with wanting an easy dog – easy grooming, easyexercising, easy training (ultra willing and somewhat dumb), easy to live with (laid back and absolutely no baggage),easy vet visits. I’ve had rough-coated collies, border collies, in-your-face-attitudes-all-the-time boneheads, fearful projects - and thoroughly enjoyed all of them in the times and places they each were mine. But the alternatives can be even better and are certainly more appropriate for most families.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Some of your remarks make me realize, you really haven't read all of the posts on this thread.

ONe of the main things in your post i disagree with, is, you seem unaware that the two most common disorders amongst dogs (dog pound dogs, or dogs you pay for) include the shy dog, ("fear-aggressive" dogs, who react to most unknown humans)

and

the dog-aggressive dog, (reacts to most unknown dogs).

These are recessive genes, the parents are almost always 'normal' dogs. Best way to avoid taking home a dog with either disorder, is to adopt an adult dog. (over 14 mos old, as either disorder is usually very obvious by then)

Early socialization does not prevent this. We can make either dog better or worse, but, it is an inherited neurobiological disorder, visible on MRIs of the dogs brains.

Some of your remarks i agree with, some i partially agree, and some i do not understand, such as this one:

//"partly because too many “rescues” are nothing more than alternative marketing entities for unethical breeders"//

 

I have yet to see a shelter being run by breeders, but, i suppose it is possible such a thing exists, but, i'd hate for your remark to be read by someone who might think that is actually common place thing, as i've never seen one.

//"or that push policies that would shut them down (like pushing messages such as never buy a dog) "//

I think you are confusing ME, (a private citizen), with a rescue org. I am posting this topic for discussion, as a private citizen. I do not own or run any shelter. I do not own Petfinders, i just recommend it.----So far as i know, *I* am the only person who ever uses the word "never".

And multiple times on this thread, i have acknowledged there are some rational reasons to actually buy a dog. Recently i helped a client try to buy a dog, she was disabled, and needed an XXXlarge service dog, and i'll help train that dog. After having her heart broke by a breeder who led her on she'd get the pup,(she didn't and was devastated, she'd already emotionally invested, but, there were only 5 pups) happy ending, though, she eventually did get a dog for her needs.

But, no matter how many times i post, "there can be some rational reasons to buy a dog" it seems to go unnoticed.

I will grant, "never" is a shocking word to use, and isn't really 100% true for a few dog shoppers,

but, it is true for the vast bulk of pet dog owners, and i am not altogether against trying to use shock value when faced with mass ignorance in the general population on a subject. (such as dog overpopulation, few know about it, or how awesome dog pound dogs are, most have been hypnotized otherwise).

//"Incidentally,there is nothing wrong with wanting an easy dog – easy grooming, easyexercising, easy training (ultra willing and somewhat dumb), easy to live with (laid back and absolutely no baggage),easy vet visits. "//

 

strawman. WOW!!!:confused:

Who on this thread ever said a word against going for easy dogs? :roflmao:

WHAT? Many many times, i have taken pains to try to educate anyone who might be reading along, to be aware, that the two most difficult types of dogs to live with (the shy dog, and the dog-aggressive dog) can not be detected in the litter box. i state several times, the best way to AVOID those issues, is choose an adult dog over 14 mos old.

Most humans still falsely believe these dogs were "raised wrong":sarcastic:, since it is not evident at birth, and most dog buyers remain unaware, it is a neurobiological disorder. These are not "easy" dogs, they are the hardest of all dogs, imo.

and buying a puppy will NOT NOT NOT prevent owning such a dog.

 

A few times on this thread, i have recommended having the dog pound dog temperment tested, or contact local rescues or orgs to find someone who can temp test a dog. Or hire or ask a trainer who is knowledgable on how to temp test,

or an animal behaviorist. Some vets can do this, too, and possibly could be hired to do so.(not sure about the vets)

 

Multiple times i have recommended people should RESEARCH the breed they are taking home.

The few times i have referred to my OWN personal preference for hotmess dogs, i have stated that is not for everyone, i am, in no way, ever ever encouraging anyone else to do so. On this and other threads, i have gone on about how such dogs require extra knowledge, "not for everyone".

Nowhere on this thread do i ever say a word against wanting a dog that is "easy". WHAT?

 

I am trying so hard to prevent people from ending up with a dog with either the "fear-aggressive" disorder, or the "dog-aggressive" disorder, by trying to educate anyone reading along, that you can NOT detect either of these difficult disorders in the litter box, no matter how much you are spending on the dog.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

//"partly because I have no desire to support organizations that want to shut down ethical breeders"//

 

My problem with that remark, is, i don't see shelters ever trying to shut down ethical breeders. I've never seen this. ever.

Key word here: ethical.

 

Most people are unable to spot the difference between a backyard breeder and an ethical breeder. The typical person "shopping" for a dog, is oblivious to the notion that most breeders are NOT "ethical" breeders.

 

 

//" I have no desire to co-own my dog which is all the semi-palatable (read – notalternative marketing entities for unethical breeders) rescue organizations will allow."//

NO clue what you meant here. I've read and reread this line 3 times, still uncertain what you are saying. Sorry.

A rescue org does adopt out dogs to one(1) person if that is what you meant, and again, rescue orgs are not run by breeders.

 

Here is a border collie rescue board, working to locate and rescue dogs in dog pounds. No breeders involved. I could post links to board

after board after board for various similar rescues.

 

http://bcrescue.org/phpBB3/index.php

You can read them yourself, to help remove your theory that rescues are secretly run by breeders to make ca$h.(?) :eek: I gotta admit, THAT'S a new one to me!!

 

Whenver i post pro-adoption dog articles, i get flack, but, this "rescues are secretly run by breeders" is a first!!!

and "rescues want to close down ethical breeders" is not true.

 

 

//"Partly because I want the (sensible) health checks and puppy immunizations, and, yes, Iknow there are thousands of perfectly healthy dogs on death row but I don’tknow which ones they are and, for the most part, neither does anyone else."//

 

Another great reason to adopt an adult dog, as puppies are mysteries. Puppies are not always like their parents, and all dogs are unique.

Almost all dogs on petfinders come uptodate on immunizations, hard to find one that isn't.

I do not feel buying a dog from a small gene pool indicates the dog will be "healthier", but, if if if if you can actually locate an ethical breeder who does full testing of the entire family tree on both sides, go for it, but,

some purebreds are inherently dysfuntional, as their design, ---although perfectly in standards of the AKC, ---IS disabling,

and

even the most ethical breeder in the world, can't promise your pup won't grow up to manifest the shy dog disorder, or the dog=aggressive disorder. Both are recessive genes.

 

//"And, yes, I know there arethousands of beautifully tempered dogs in the pounds but, again, I don’t knowwhich ones "//

Like i have said, many to most dog pounds have personnel available to temp test, and if not, many breed rescues or other nearby rescues, will come temp test a dog. It's also a good idea to learn even some basic things to assess for your own self, imo.

Your chances of bringing home a dog

with either of the two most devastating dog behavioral issues ("shy" dogs or "dog-aggressive" dogs)

is far far higher, if you choose a puppy, as neither disorder is visible in the litter box. *Some* experts say you can detect the shy dogs, even in the litter box, but, it's hard to do, imo. (again, there are levels of shy dogs, not all turn aggressive, but are far far far far more prone to manifest fear-aggression).

 

//"Partly because I support the ethical breeding of dogs because I don’t like whathappens when there are too few ethical breeders. "//

I might agree with this, but, ethical breeders usually do not lack for customers, their chances of going out of business is pretty darn slim. They tend to charge up to 10s of 1000s for a pup, because they do invest so much into health and genetic testing.

(still no way to rule out the shy dog gene, or the dog-aggressive gene, though, but, some breeders who do follow their dogs, can detect that one or two pups of each litter manifest either disorder, however,

sadly, most breeders think those pups "were raised wrong" so continue to use the dogs they have).

Your financial support to the ethical breedrs, is redundant, and in no way even pinches the rampant BYBs.

Ethical breeders do very well, and people fight to get one of their pups.

and the presence of ethical breeders

in

no

way

discourages backyard breeders, at all. Backyard breeders flourish, wherever.

Few humans can or will pay the amounts asked for by ethical breeders. They go for backyard breeders, and don't even realize their breeder IS a backyard breeder.

so this remark really doesn't make sense.

//"Often because they don’t know nearly as much as they think they do and/or they are so bent on their mission that they miss on stuff they might actually know. "//

This is very true of most backyard breeders!!

soooooo true!!

and 80% of AKC registered pups do come from BYBs.

//" I’ve had rough-coated collies, border collies, in-your-face-attitudes-all-the-time boneheads, fearful projects "//

I am sorry you were unable to bring out the best in BCs, like i say, and like everything you read about the breed will say----------the breed is not for everyone.

I know TONS of lovely, well behaved BCs like my own,

and to slap the entire breed as "boneheads" displays a lack of experience with the breed,

and i am sorry you ended up with a "fearful" dog. BCs do NEED training, and stuff to do, it's almost like air to a BC,

and not eveyrone knows much about training dogs, i'll agree with that.

If a border collie is taken home by someone who actually does understand the needs of the breed, and provides the activity necessary for that breed, the dog is a lovely, respectful dog, but, most people don't know how to give a dog a job.

this is another reason, in "Reason #6" of the original post, i wrote

"couch potato who takes home a high energy breed" ends up with dog being relinquished. Nothing wrong with the DOG, but not all homes or humans are well suited for

high energy breeds.

My BC is a most respectful well behaved dog, who does therapy work at my sister's nursing home, as are most BCs that i know of, who are living with people who researched what type of needs BCs have.

another reason i always repeatedly and strongly recommend, that more people RESEARCH THE BREED you are interested in.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by somenurse

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This is why my husband and I have evolved into cat people.Together we have had a couple of dogs but they are both gone now and we have become a volunteer foster family for a feline rescue.Nothing is more rewarding then raising a litter of kittens and seeing them go to their forever home.My husband even keeps a scrap book ( he calls himself the cat whisperer) If I am stuck pulling a double I know the family will be fine-one of them can even open the container of dry food and feed them all.Smart bunch. I loved our dogs but it was like having a toddler.I won't have another until I am -at the very least- semi retired. We give a lot to our friends and in return they give us much more -Seeing them lined up in the picture window when I pull into the driveway is my reward.

While i so share your love of animals, bazillions of cats are being put to death for lack of humans who want them.

The cat overpopulation crisis, is even worse than the dog overpopulation crisis. We have too many cats already. Maybe you'd find just as much as satisfaction, going to the local pound, selecting a dozen already born kittens,

and passing THOSE out to your friends? Peace out.

cats_propogation.gif

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Well written Sasfaa. I too have put many an animal on that euthanasia table for that last injection. Chambers are illegal in the state. I also want to come home to dogs that are nice to live with with very little baggage. (I don't know many nurses that want to tell many of their patients where they live or have coffee with daily) My day and sometimes night job invovles working with hard to handle dogs that are owned by other people. Yesterday, I almost took a bite to the face because of an unsable dog. I prefer to go home and not have the same fight. There is nothing wrong with having a well bred puppy that can be trained into a nice dog. I have had some really nice shelter dogs but I've learned to put my emotions aside when I choose one. Again there are many that I would not be able to live with in my situation. Plus once the dog crosses my threshold it is here for life unless some really drastic happens so the dog has to be liveable in my circumstances.

Fuzzy

I so so admire your work with hard to handle dogs!! I bet you ARE aware of the difficulties faced by humans who own either a 'shy' dog (often called "fear-aggressive") or a "dog-aggressive" dog. No way to know, when one chooses a "well bred PUPPY" if that pup will grow up to manifes either disorder as the pup approaches maturity.

Both disorders are caused by recessive genes, the parents are almost invariably 'normal' dogs. And, it only strikes 1 or 2 of the litter. And the breeder will just tell you "you raised it wrong" if you end up with such a dog. Most humans remain unaware these are genetic neurobioligcal disorders. We can make either type of dog better, or worse, but, both of those behaviors are neurbobioligically driven.

For people who need a definite type of temperament in their pet, and wish to avoid the two most common behavioral disorders in dogs,

choosing a PUPPY is your LEAST reliable way to go.

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While i so share your love of animals, bazillions of cats are being put to death for lack of humans who want them.

The cat overpopulation crisis, is even worse than the dog overpopulation crisis. We have too many cats already. Maybe you'd find just as much as satisfaction, going to the local pound, selecting a dozen already born kittens,

and passing THOSE out to your friends? Peace out.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]12292[/ATTACH]

You misunderstood my post,I should have explained the process more thoroughly.The rescue often brings in felines in advanced gestation-if very early they can be spayed and aborted but that window of time is small. Later on in the gestation they must be allowed to carry the litter to term.They also frequently bring in cats with young litters -many are feral.We try to raise the litter and tame them so they can be adopted and we have had reasonable success.When we fail then the rescue looks for a farm situation for them to live out their lives. We are not just passing out kittens to our friends,this a real feline rescue we volunteer for and prospective forever families must fill out a 5 page application,pay an adoption fee and all of the kittens are spayed/neutered and have had vaccinations and worming prior to leaving the foster homes. The family must agree to surrender the cat back to the rescue if they need to get rid of it in the future. That has happened a few times (we have one of those now-he's ours) We also have 2 that never really came around and can't be handled,they'll live out their lives here with us.Sadly because their mommas did not receive the care they deserved during their gestation some litter don't survive or kittens are born with problems that make them "special needs" and not many people want to adopt them.(We have a few of thoses,too) The rescue does not have a shelter-it's a network of foster homes and it does have a large online profile and seems to be very popular.Not that I have even gone out looking for cat-they seem to always just find us. Believe me-we would have run out of friends to hand kittens out to a long time ago.

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You misunderstood my post,I should have explained the process more thoroughly.The rescue often brings in felines in advanced gestation-if very early they can be spayed and aborted but that window of time is small. Later on in the gestation they must be allowed to carry the litter to term.They also frequently bring in cats with young litters -many are feral.We try to raise the litter and tame them so they can be adopted and we have had reasonable success.When we fail then the rescue looks for a farm situation for them to live out their lives. We are not just passing out kittens to our friends,this a real feline rescue we volunteer for and prospective forever families must fill out a 5 page application,pay an adoption fee and all of the kittens are spayed/neutered and have had vaccinations and worming prior to leaving the foster homes. The family must agree to surrender the cat back to the rescue if they need to get rid of it in the future. That has happened a few times (we have one of those now-he's ours) We also have 2 that never really came around and can't be handled,they'll live out their lives here with us.Sadly because their mommas did not receive the care they deserved during their gestation some litter don't survive or kittens are born with problems that make them "special needs" and not many people want to adopt them.(We have a few of thoses,too) The rescue does not have a shelter-it's a network of foster homes and it does have a large online profile and seems to be very popular.Not that I have even gone out looking for cat-they seem to always just find us. Believe me-we would have run out of friends to hand kittens out to a long time ago.

oh, ktwlpn, i am so sorry, i am now so in awe of you!! KUDOS to you, ktwlpn, wish we could clone you!!!

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oh, ktwlpn, i am so sorry, i am now so in awe of you!! KUDOS to you, ktwlpn, wish we could clone you!!!
I'm sure you have a mouse or two.We can help with that-it's all natural pest control!

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