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Don't buy a dog, not any dog at all.

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Well, why buy a companion dog from a breeder?

Several reasons. First of all, if you are familiar with a particular breed and like their personalities, then perhaps you want another dog like that but without the responsibilities of showing the dog. Such was the case with my very own Bouvier. Ruffy was a documented, purebred Bouvier, and along with ownership came the responsibility of showing him, keeping him properly groomed at all times. Training him was a daily thing. I had oodles of support from the breeders on all kinds of levels: grooming tips, training tips, and just visits where we all became good friends.

Along the way, his breeders removed one of their dogs from another home because the owners failed to properly care for her, and they asked us if we could take this dog in. I would have loved to do that, but we already had two dogs, and our homeowner's CCR's said "two dogs." I wanted to do that, however, and had we not already had two dogs, I would have been all over it, in a heartbeat.

Breeders have litters, and maybe only one or two of the pups will be good enough to actually show. The others needs good homes. Why not get a dog like that, from a breeder you already know and trust, and possibly from doggie parents that are known to produce dogs with awesome personalities or other traits?

We have done both, however......purebred dogs from breeders (because we wanted a certain kind of dog, with certain kind of instincts) and our Rambo, who was a shelter puppy, born in the shelter, shown on TV one morning and mine that afternoon. He was awesome......sadly, at 3 1/2, he got lymphoma and we had to put him down.

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So where do shelter dogs come from? Why are they better then a well bred dog from an ethical breeder? How do ethical breeders contribute to the "over population problem"?

Fuzzy

This is a great and honest question. first i will try to address the first 2 questions.I know you are not the only one wondering that exact same thing, so it is great you had the courage to post this very very good question.

I do address where many shelter dogs come from, in "#6 reason" in the original post. Also, many to most "problem" dogs are put down in the shelter, usually the first ones chosen for death, are dogs who do have a history of any issue. Whether or not the dog being killed actually HAS an issue, is debatable, but, those dogs are often killed/not adopted out, or, adopted out with warnings, "Only dog in the house" or "no children" or "no cats!" or whatever. Even a cursory look over Petfinders, one can spot many dogs who come with some type of caveat or warning to their adoption.

I do not agree that most breeders are ethical. I don't usually determine if a breeder is ethical, by what they say, or how much they know about or gush over the breed, so much as what they DO. Many backyard breeders, who are inadvertently adding to the both the destruction of a breed, as well as the dog overpopulation crisis,

are charming, lovable folks, who you or i would 'like' or admire as apparently devoted dog fans. Doesn't mean they are being fair to the parent dogs, who are often kept in horrific conditions.

Not all backyard breeders (and the bulk of AKC pups come from BYB) keep the parent dogs in less than ideal surroundings, leading less than ideal lives,

but, it is not uncommon.

Lotta people making money off of dog uteruses...

I will agree, there are ethical breeders out there, but, they are less common, and most humans can't spot the difference between an ethical breeder and a BYB. Anyone reading along should google "signs of an ethical breeders", and "backyard breeders". Read several different articles to get a rounded understanding of how the 2 kinds are different.

Store bought dogs are very often from notoriously horrific puppy mills. For anyone reading along, do google "puppy mills" if this is new idea to you. I can post videos/exposes of where store dogs come from, that would make you weep.

But, let's say, you are buying from an ethical breeder, (which is NOT the typical breeder, but, let's say you actually found one)

It's a very rare breeder who tests the Entire family tree of a dog. It is "ethical breeders" who are winning prizes at Crufts for King Charles Cavaliers who carry the gene for syringomylia,

and are breeding dogs to extremes dictated by the AKC, which i think is wrong. I am no fan of the AKC,:mad: at all!!

Again, there can be rational reasons for one to need a working or special type of dog, etc, like PFMB's needs for a hunting dog, and some other types of special needs for a dog.

But MOST dog owners are looking for a companion animal, and there really isn't a lot of rational reasons to support breeders when choosing a companion animal. Oh, there are "reasons",

but, most of the reasons given by these people do not always strike me as rational reasons. PFMB is a good example, of someone who IS using rational reasons to choose a certain type of working dog. (although, it is debatable if he couldn't find the exact same qualities in a dog at a dog pound, but, no way to be sure, and he needs to be sure, and he believes all the puppies will have same talents as their parents).

I do not believe dogs need papers to be lovable, loyal, useful pieces of sunshine running through my life. I think many of the humans buying their dog, seem to sometimes suffer from what i call "dog snobbery"-----the belief that a dog with papers is somehow "superior" to a dog without papers. All the AKC papers prove

is that the dog they bought comes from a very small gene pool.

AKC papers in no way guarantees the dog is healthy, nor talented, or can function well,

or will display the traits typical or wanted from that breed, nor any such thing. Just, that the dog comes from a small gene pool.

I do not view coming from a small gene pool, as a "plus", INSTEAD i view the small gene pool as a way to condense and increase the chances that the diseases and disorders and disabilities so rampant in most purebreds could occur in that dog.

but, an ethical breeder will test BOTH parents for some to many of the diseases, but, unless doing the entire family tree, hard to rule out some of the recessive disorders. And no way at all, none,

to rule out bringing home a dog that will later manifest the recessive genes for becoming a "shy" ('fear-aggressive", reacts to unknown humans) dog or a "dog-aggressive" dog. These disorders are NOT visible in the litter box, and manifest as the pup approaches maturity.

But, adopting an adult dog IS good way to know who the dog IS.

Puppies are a mystery. One can buy from an ethical breeder, if one educates themselves enough to be able to tell them apart from the typical backyard breeder, but, most of the reasons to do this, are not usually rational, when one can rescue the exact same dog from a dog pound.

but, if one IS adamant they need their dog to have AKC papers,:rolleyes: for whatever reason, (rational or not)

it is best to learn how to spot an ethical breeder. I'll agree with that!!!

Edited by somenurse

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So where do shelter dogs come from? Why are they better then a well bred dog from an ethical breeder? How do ethical breeders contribute to the "over population problem"?

Fuzzy

Now, the ethical breeder, will almost always insist the dogs they adopt out, be only bred under certain conditions, or should be fixed/spayed.

The BYB doesn't care, and for every whoopsie (or planned) litter in the USA, statistically, one of six pups in every litter in the USA,

ends up in a dog pound. for whatever reason (see Reason #6 in original post).

ONe out of six. that's sad.

For every litter created, each and eveyr one of those dogs, can go on to produce, within an incredibly short amount of time, 100s and 100s of extra, often homeless unwanted dogs, roaming the streets or filling the dog pounds. Dog pounds are overwhelmed, and can't feed or care for all these dogs, and 4 to 6 million dogs are put to death each and every year.

also, it is a matter of supply and demand. There are only so many available humans for dogs to live with. Every dog bought, is, in fact, one less dog that makes it off of death row. Wayyyyy too many humans falsely believe that dogs with papers, are somehow more lovable or talented than dogs without papers. This "dog snobbery" as i call it, skews the competition against the lovable, wonderful dogs in the dog pounds, who have lost their "papers", or never had any to begin with,

yet, are awesome wonderful dogs and pups, just the same.

See, when my rescue dog loves on me, protects me, helps me with various tasks (he can pick up all his toys, haha, and fetch multiple items on cue) gets me to take my walks two or 3 times each day, gets me to go to the parks or woods, greets me with unbridled joy when i come home, or provides me with joy and laughter, that has zero to do with "papers". To ME, the joy and wonderfulness a dog brings to a home,

has ZERO to do with any "papers" and i often have trouble even understanding the mindset that thinks "papers" increase a the joy a dog brings to one's life. I admit it, i don't truly understand that mindset.

To ME, it is a bit of a moral issue, to me. I'd rather rescue a dog in need, than support a breeder with my wallet. Our cash IS what keeps people making livings from dog uteruses, cranking out litter after litter after litter,

and every litter adds exponentially to the dog overpopulation crisis.

but, you make a good point, as most of the actually ethical breeders, are incredibly strict on the pups they sell being not bred, or bred only under certain conditions.

however, most humans are not getting their dogs from actually ethical breeders, but, instead, are buying their companion animals from backyard breeders, or worse, from pet stores.

Edited by somenurse

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also, a large reason we have too many dogs in dog pounds,

is

simply

we have too many dogs.

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Several reasons. First of all, if you are familiar with a particular breed and like their personalities, then perhaps you want another dog like that but without the responsibilities of showing the dog. Such was the case with my very own Bouvier. Ruffy was a documented, purebred Bouvier, and along with ownership came the responsibility of showing him, keeping him properly groomed at all times. Training him was a daily thing. I had oodles of support from the breeders on all kinds of levels: grooming tips, training tips, and just visits where we all became good friends.

Along the way, his breeders removed one of their dogs from another home because the owners failed to properly care for her, and they asked us if we could take this dog in. I would have loved to do that, but we already had two dogs, and our homeowner's CCR's said "two dogs." I wanted to do that, however, and had we not already had two dogs, I would have been all over it, in a heartbeat.

Breeders have litters, and maybe only one or two of the pups will be good enough to actually show. The others needs good homes. Why not get a dog like that, from a breeder you already know and trust, and possibly from doggie parents that are known to produce dogs with awesome personalities or other traits?

We have done both, however......purebred dogs from breeders (because we wanted a certain kind of dog, with certain kind of instincts) and our Rambo, who was a shelter puppy, born in the shelter, shown on TV one morning and mine that afternoon. He was awesome......sadly, at 3 1/2, he got lymphoma and we had to put him down.

THIS does sound like you were working with ethical breeders. good on you!

I do not think dog shows are "good" things, and i do not believe dog shows promote dog talents, dog health, or dog function, but, i realize most people view "showing dogs" as some kind of 'good' thing. I don't even think all the dogs who are shown at dog shows, live very good lives. I do not much approve of dog beauty shows, really, when so many of the breeds being shown, have been ruined by increasingly extreme AKC "standards" to be met. Just arbitrary, often unhealthy angles, measurements, and looks, that can be very unhealthy for a dog, or lead to loss of function to what a normal healthy canine should be able to do.

I think one can love and desire a certain breed, THAT is very understandable to me. Needing their pet to have AKC papers is lost on me. It really is. I don't "get it", at all. I CAN understand how someone might want, say, a certain breed of dog, but, usually, one can find that breed of dog at a dog pound.

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btw, it has come to my attention, that my article, "Don't buy a dog, not any dog at all" is being posted all over the internet.:D I am the original author of that article, but, i have posted it on multiple sites for years. I have recently been sent links to MY article, being posted on various sites, and it wasn't *me* claiming to have written it. Other people are now posting MY article, as if they had written it. wow!

but, i AM the original author of this article, in case anyone is thinking i am plagerizing someone else's article. Nope, i am the one BEING plagerized, which, i kind of find flattering! I do not mind this, not even slightly, and think more people should re-evaluate if they truly "need" an AKC paper for their pet.

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"The other point is that many shelters/rescues have made it almost impossible for people to take dogs from their facilities. The rules for include: fenced yards; owned homes; no children under a certain age or no children at all; all other pets n the home must be sterilized; has to have a person in the house 24/7; and the list goes on. The shelter that I am fostering this crazy dog for will not allow some one to train the dog for competition or work. Somehow I'm fostering it and I train dogs for obedience competition and hunting. I also don't have a fenced yard. However I can take the dog to work with me. Plus the dog is being trained in hopes that the seperation anxiety can become better controlled."

I have worked at a shelter and I know why they are THAT specific:1)fenced in yards,um so the dog wont escape and be secure in a fenced in area...2)owned home,do you know how many dogs have been returned to a shelter because a home that wasnt owned by pet owner,WAS NOT ALLOWED BY THE HOMEOWNER??? 3)really your questioning pets in the house must be sterilized?ever hear of cat/dog OVERpopulation?!!?!!?lol! 4)I learned when I worked at the shelter certain breed dogs should not be around children under a certain age-chows,huskies,dalmations(i was surprised by that one!)so yah child restrictions...Do you think just because they are a shelter they should not be strict to whom they are adopting to?They should adopt the animal to anyone willing?I worked the dept where I had to "interview" hopeful animal owners,among others areas and some people are so lackadaisical about animal ownership,not thinking,oh i might not be able to afford to care for my dog..oh,im supposed to take it a vet biannually..?Ive had a lady bring back a PUPPY months later(dunno if she adopted w/us or just brought b/c didnt know what to do) but someone gave her some dumbass ideas on how to treat some skin issue(some oil)the dog had scars/scabs all over him.Lady was crying b/c she just didnt know and couldnt afford to take him to the Dr...!SO YAH,THE SHELTERS GET A LITTLE STRICT b/c of these jerks and justifiably so!!!

Pure breed/mixed,doesnt really matter,one is not any better than the other! As long as these poor pups find homes.People encourage shelter dogs because shelters are WAAAAY over run w/cats/dogs among other animals and in bad need of homes. I could go on and on but I am sure the person who started this topic has said it all..lol

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//"I could go on and on but I am sure the person who started this topic has said it all..lol"//

THANKS for your post, very informative, really helps explain some of the rules that might seem excessive to someone who doesn't have your background.

and yeah, i did go on a bit, lol, but, it's good to have back up, it's good for anyone trying to get a new outlook on this topic, to hear from MORE than just me or just a few. so thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge, i so agree!

one other problem i think goes on, is, smart people reading along,

might have trouble even imagining

some of the truly dumb things or dumb decisions that OTHER people ARE capable of. It is hard for some smart people to imagine some of the breathtakingly dumb reasons, or the lack of commitment, that another person can have about their dog.

Many smart or committed dog owners, can not even remotely imagine relinquishing their dog,

cuz it got fleas,

cuz their sister's new child is allergic to dogs,

cuz they move,

cuz the dog ate a shoe,

cuz the dog won't come when it's called,

cuz the dog puked on their ipod,

cuz the dog barks too much for their liking,

cuz the dog acts up when he isn't given his walks,

cuz the dog growled at a child who was poking him in the eyes,

cuz the dog peed on the floor when no one let it out on a Friday night,

cuz the dog is "too demanding" (wants to play)

cuz they are tired of dog hair in their vehicle,

cuz they can't pay for sitters when they go on vacation,

or any number of what i feel are "dumb" reasons to religuish

---> a very fine dog

to a dog pound.

I think many smart people,

or many people who DO feel a deep commitment for their pet,

can not imagine there that there really really ARE many many humans who are not that committed, who are not that smart, turning in absolutely fine dogs to the pound.

Edited by somenurse

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This is a battle that I don't believe can ever be won. It's not a choice I will ever make,I have researched various rescues and know exactly where I'll go when I have the time to devote to another dog and I'll get the breed I want and I want to give an older dog a home .However a few years ago I stumbled across two elderly sisters of that breed on petfinders and was ready to commit to driving half way down the east coast to get them-the rescue refused me because " what if you get them home and change your mind?" Really? I planned on spending an entire day with them prior to commiting-this was something I insisted upon.And still they refused me.I really think the foster person just did not want to give them up!

A good friend of mine does feline rescue and has several colonies of cats on her property.However she has gone out and spent alot of money on a very expensive breed of cat to show. He was one of the top 10 cats in the country,got sick and died young(another example of how they are not the healthiest).Does the fact that she spent money and bought from a breeder cancel out the good she does with her rescue efforts?

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I have worked at a shelter and I know why they are THAT specific:1)fenced in yards,um so the dog wont escape and be secure in a fenced in area...

*** This is nothing but city people's anti rural bias and rediculous. I have owed dogs my entire life and never had a problem keep my dogs on my property. What is horrbly wrong with an adopted dog that it, and it alone, among all the dozen or so dogs I have had will have a problem staying on my property?

3)really your questioning pets in the house must be sterilized?ever hear of cat/dog OVERpopulation?!!?!!?lol!

*** This is just pushing your own somewhat strange agenda and the one who will suffer is the dog who misses out on a nice and loving home cause certain people wanted to push their own agenda onto others. Want to refuse me the little house mutt I have been looking for cause my hound isn't casterated and I don't have a fenced yard? Fine I will simply BUY a dog. My purchase will encourage others to continue to breed dogs. So yes denie that little mutt in the pound a happy home with a loving family who has a lot of time to devote to a dog. I can see how that pound dog and all the other dogs out there will benifit from pushing your agenda.

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"The other point is that many shelters/rescues have made it almost impossible for people to take dogs from their facilities. The rules for include: fenced yards; owned homes; no children under a certain age or no children at all; all other pets n the home must be sterilized; has to have a person in the house 24/7; and the list goes on. The shelter that I am fostering this crazy dog for will not allow some one to train the dog for competition or work. Somehow I'm fostering it and I train dogs for obedience competition and hunting. I also don't have a fenced yard. However I can take the dog to work with me. Plus the dog is being trained in hopes that the seperation anxiety can become better controlled."

I have worked at a shelter and I know why they are THAT specific:1)fenced in yards,um so the dog wont escape and be secure in a fenced in area...2)owned home,do you know how many dogs have been returned to a shelter because a home that wasnt owned by pet owner,WAS NOT ALLOWED BY THE HOMEOWNER??? 3)really your questioning pets in the house must be sterilized?ever hear of cat/dog OVERpopulation?!!?!!?lol! 4)I learned when I worked at the shelter certain breed dogs should not be around children under a certain age-chows,huskies,dalmations(i was surprised by that one!)so yah child restrictions...Do you think just because they are a shelter they should not be strict to whom they are adopting to?They should adopt the animal to anyone willing?I worked the dept where I had to "interview" hopeful animal owners,among others areas and some people are so lackadaisical about animal ownership,not thinking,oh i might not be able to afford to care for my dog..oh,im supposed to take it a vet biannually..?Ive had a lady bring back a PUPPY months later(dunno if she adopted w/us or just brought b/c didnt know what to do) but someone gave her some dumbass ideas on how to treat some skin issue(some oil)the dog had scars/scabs all over him.Lady was crying b/c she just didnt know and couldnt afford to take him to the Dr...!SO YAH,THE SHELTERS GET A LITTLE STRICT b/c of these jerks and justifiably so!!!

Pure breed/mixed,doesnt really matter,one is not any better than the other! As long as these poor pups find homes.People encourage shelter dogs because shelters are WAAAAY over run w/cats/dogs among other animals and in bad need of homes. I could go on and on but I am sure the person who started this topic has said it all..lol

But by requiring such strict requirements, you're pushing out an entire population of viable adopters who *could* be adopting animals that would otherwise be euthanized.

By requiring a fenced in yard for all dogs, you're closing off both apartment dwellers and a large subset of home owners/renters. Yes, there are irresponsible people who want to adopt dogs and are fine with them roaming around urban areas and we (as apartment renters) dealt with people like that quite often, but a rational, responsible owner isn't going to let their dog wander off-leash except within the confines of a dog park. We somehow managed to keep our dog from running away for a whole three years before we ever had a fenced-in yard.

Also, you could argue that fenced-in yards encourage POOR dog ownership viz-a-viz laziness since the general recommendation is that even dogs with fenced-in yards should be walked 2-3 times a day.

Per your second point, I would assume that calling the renter's landlord about pet ownership would clear up any confusion unless said owner was lying. I'm not entirely certain that having a mortgage on a house is any measure of security in this economic climate where people are getting foreclosed on left and right. I know that when I was a dedicated renter, I had a time-line as to when my lease was up and a certain flexibility in planning with where I would be moving to next. Foreclosure is a totally different animal, no pun intended.

--

There is ultimately a difference between letting anyone with a pulse adopt and making adoption requirements so stringent that only a few people qualify because you're afraid that the animal might go to a bad home or be returned.

--

Also, shelters mess up too. The large no-kill shelter in our area adopted out an older kitten to us who had FIP. We ended up with the medical bills, plus the trauma of having to watch a beloved pet basically drown in his own secretions.

/shelter gave us a "freebie" kitten after that

//we still paid the adoption fee plus donated

///still got nasty looks from some of the volunteers who thought we had killed the kitten

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