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somenurse somenurse (Member)

Don't buy a dog, not any dog at all.

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You are reading page 10 of Don't buy a dog, not any dog at all.. If you want to start from the beginning Go to First Page.

I'm a realist. My idealism left the room when Reagan was elected the first time. I've worked with pets and pet people since before that time.

Here is what my book of hard knocks have taught me about dogs:

One training method does not work for all dogs. Good trainers train dogs using many methods.

No dog can be trained to do all things. There are reasons why breeds were developed.

Every dog has his own personality that is influenced by environment and genetics. In most cases environment has more of an effect.

Dogs are not fuzzy humans...they are dogs.

Dogs are not wolves (although related)...they are dogs. To call a dog a wolf is to call a human a gorilla.

Even small dogs can do us harm. They can out run us, out jump us, out hear us, out smell us and bite the heel out of us.

Not all dogs want to live with and/or work with people.

Not all dogs can or should be saved.

Dogs are the only specie that I can think of that actually chooses to have a relationship with us. Dogs actually develop emotional bonds with people just as people develop emotional attachments with dogs.

Here's what my book of hard knocks have taught me about dog people:

The owner of the dog owns the best dog. Just ask him.

Few owners see themselves as the "problem".

Most owners want a great dog...few are willing to put the work into selecting and training one.

People do more research on a car that they might keep for three years then on a dog that may live with them for 10-15 years.

Some people would be better off with a house plant... oh wait...

Many people expect the dog to know more then he does. The dog should be magically house trained, not to chew, bite, pull, etc.

Many people who rescue use the "he's been abused" card as an excuse for the dog's poor and often times dangerous behavior.

Real estate does not make a good dog owner. Some of the most neglected dogs that I've seen have been behind a fence enclosing an expensive house.

Just because a child "needs" a dog doesn't mean that the family does.

Not all "show" breeders are ethical...not all backyard breeders are unethical. The buyer has to define his own set of ethics when it comes to breeding.

There are just some people who are always "right"...just ask them.

Again these opinions are from my real experience in working with dogs and their owners. I started in high school many moons ago training hunting dogs for the neighbors. While in college, I taught obedience classes and did private in home training to earn some extra money. When I couldn't find a job in my course of study, I hired on as a pet groomer in a veterinary hospital and boarding kennel. I had a career change and went through a veterinary technician program. Today I'm a certified veterinary technician in a small animal veterinary hospitial. I also volunteer at the local shelter; hold training classes for adults and 4H kids; train and compete with my own dogs in obedience, rally, agility, and hunting tests; play a "victim" for the local search dog group; and do a bit of grooming.

For you avid readers a good read Is Zoobiquity; What Animals Can teach Us About Health and the Science of Healing by Barbara Natterson-Horowitz, MD and Kathrn Bowers.

Fuzzy

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I am just not going to bother to read all that. And as I have said in a previous post, I also agree that dogs love to have a purpose, that is why they are soooo darn good at the jobs they are trained to do and why we love them so much as pets, because they love to please us...this is because they are such intelligent and social creatures.

And I disagree, it is physically impossible, if not also often cognitively impossible, to train ANY dog for any task. And that's ok, the dog doesn't have to be superdog in order not be be abandoned at the shelter. Peoples understanding of animals and their language and abilities, or lack thereof, is astounding. It saddens me when I see a dog practically screaming it's body language at it's owner, who is completely oblivious, but yet they are such dog people and know everything, so are about impossible to educate.

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EDIT, i think some of my remarks below, i got blurry about which person i was replying to, sorry!! sorry!! (leaves to get more coffee..)

I liked most of your post above. Not sure how some of it applies to the topic of adopt vs buy, and some of it seems to be replying to statements i have never ever made at all, but, i do like many of your remarks, esp about how many humans do not research the breed, do not know much about dogs.

//"One training method does not work for all dogs. Good trainers train dogs using many methods."//

ah, you've never used a clicker, i thought so (from other discussions we've had). Any dog can be clicker trained, any dog at all. Clickers work for any dog, as well as many other creatures. Yes, clicker trainers use many other methods of dog training,

like luring, capturing, free-shaping, etc, still, these are just subsets of CLICKER training, an all-positive method of dog training.

Clickers not only work to train all dogs, every single dog you bring me, can be clicker trained,

cllickers also work to get tigers past their innate fear of fire, to jump through rings of fire.

tiger fire.jpg

(NOT that i approve of how circus animals live, nope, NOT my point, but, if a clicker can get an 800 lb tiger to jump through a ring of fire, might be worth considering on your dog).

Clickers are also how we get wild killer whales to do, what we want, when we want it.

Clickers can be used to train hamsters, chickens, rats, cats, you name it. Yes, there really IS a universal training method that does work for ALLLLLLL dogs!!!!!!!!!!!

Most service dogs are clicker trained. Until you give clickers a whirl, i don't know you can state "no method works for all dogs" If you are having trouble training a dog to do something, when properly using a clicker, either PM me for troubleshooting, or, post it here for help:

Dog Trick Academy - Fresh Dog Tricks Ideas for Dog Owners

they will help you find out why the dog you are clicker training is not getting it. for real, give it a whirl.

Again, most humans are NOT looking for working dogs,:sarcastic:they are looking for

PETS

but, if one wants most any breed at all, for a breed specific physical ability, etc,---------- there is a 90% chance that breed can be adopted from Petfinders.

I do not approve of all training methods, or of all dog trainers, (shiver!) and i do think most any dog can be trained to do most anything at all. I do think many in the dog world can be 'dug in' to consider new ideas, and instead prefer to stick with shock collars, choke collars, jerking dogs around, prong collars,etc,

cuz that is what they are used to,:(

and think you are right, that most humans, and even some trainers, do not understand dogs that well. I know many in the dog world still advocate for force, jerking, scolding, punishment or fear-based methods, and people who use those methods, whihc you and i have discussed on other threads,

which do NOT work for every dog--------would find it hard to believe

that yes,

we can pretty much train any dog

to do most anything!!!

NO akc paper required.:sarcastic: People who use the 'old school' methods, which do NOT work on every dog, could indeed, believe it takes a 'special' kind of dog to learn stuff, since not all dogs can learn without a clicker,

but, all dogs can learn with a clicker, it DOES work for ALL dogs, Pets2ppl, try it and see. Again, msg me if you hit a roadblock, i can help you figure out what you are doing wrong, if you think not all dogs can be trained by using clickers.

Still, i was assuming a baseline of common sense. If one wants a swimming rescue dog, you would not start with a pug, who has been bred to be unable to swim. If one wants a snow rescue dog, you wouldn't start with a chihuahua.

//"There are just some people who are always "right"...just ask them."//

I'm not sure if this was some attempt at a passive-aggressive jab at me,:lol2: after i replied to your post when you said dog pound dogs can't be working dogs or service dogs, and i posted link after link, (and can post many more links!) proving you are just flat wrong about that, or not sure what your remark there might indicate how you handle being proven wrong, but, i'll just leave it at that.

Rw: breeders,

we have a dog overpopulation crisis, that more humans need to become aware of. I think most humans are fairly oblvious to the dog overpopulation crisis, wouldn't you agree?

I think most backyard breeders are unaware of how even one (1) litter, can end up with 67,000 extra dogs in JUST A FEW YEARS, and statistically, many of these dogs will end up in the dog pound.

Y2Spay.jpg

Like i've said repeatedly------------There can be rational reasons to breed a dog, or rational reasons to buy a dog, but, most humans and most breeders do not fit well under that umbrella, and are oblivious to the dog overpopulation crisis.

There are ethical breeders, working to improve the breed health. I've mentioned them a few times now. True, these are a tiny minority of breeders, but, such breeders do exist. I have never ever referred to "show" breeders---I do not think much of the AKC, period. I think most humans who think a dog "with papers" is somehow superior, should reconsider if this is true.

I think there is a fairly rampant form of what i call "dog snobbery" which is not based on rational info.

I do not believe the dogs with AKC papers are, in any way, superior to dog pound dogs, especially if we include backyard breeders who usually can not afford the testing involved, and seem oblivious to the dog overpopulation crisis.

STill, even if one buys their dog---- no way to test for shy genes or dog-aggressive genes. ONe could spend $1000s on a baby dog, and the dog later manifests either of the 2 disorders.

//"Many people who rescue use the "he's been abused" card as an excuse for the dog's poor and often times dangerous behavior."//

^Most rescues make lovely pets, and this is often said of shy dogs, a genetic disorder. When one reaches for a shy dog, the shy dog ducks away, growls or even bites, the uninformed human cries out, "oh, he's been abused!". Has nothing to do with abuse, shyness can strike dogs who were much loved and well raised.

And not all dog pound dogs have been abused---this is yet another myth.

so not sure where you get the "many" there, and people who buy dogs also have excuses for their dog's behavior as well, too. ("Well, Fido got frightened at Uncle Fred's by a big dog at a party, and has reacted to all dogs ever since" or, "well, this breed always pulls on the leash, so what can i do?" etc)

You maintain a steady "anti-rescue" type of remarks, in every post you put up,

yet, you state things like //"The problem can be reduced by helping people get past the stigma and issues that come with trying to adopt or rescue a pet "// which seems odd to me, to try to paint rescues as problem dogs in every single post you have put up, acting as if the only problems you have ever encountered, only happen with rescues, (lol) (and pre-apologies if i am getting all the various people replying to this thread blurred together)

yet you DO admit that stigma is the problem...yet, you contribute to the stigma, as much as you can.....odd.

Especially when the overwhelming vast bulk of rescues make awesome pets. If the link below is broken, Please google and read "Petfniders Happy Tails"

February 2013 | Pet Adoption Happy Tails | Petfinder

Edited by somenurse

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I pre-apologize for my last post above, i DO think i have mixed up names, gotten blurry about which person or post i was replying to, or "trying" to reply to, i am sorry.

and sorry, i have editted my last post, so, it says different things NOW, than it did 5 minutes ago..sorry.

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Main reason we have too many dogs in the dog pounds

is

we have too many dogs.

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ah, you've never used a clicker, i thought so (from other discussions we've had). Any dog can be clicker trained, any dog at all. Clickers work for any dog, as well as many other creatures. Yes, clicker trainers use many other methods of dog training,

like luring, capturing, free-shaping, etc, still, these are just subsets of CLICKER training, an all-positive method of dog training.

 

Actually, I do use clicker training. I teach the use of clickers and other markers in my training classes. Patty Ruzzo and Gary Wilkes offered many seminars in the area at one time. Workshops have been offered at many veterinary conferences on clicker training and behavior modification. I've had the opportunity to listen and learn from the likes of Karen Pryor, Sophia Yin, Karen Overall, and Patricia McConnell. I've also attended classes put on by Terry Ryan. I really do like Emily Larlham's videos. They are a good resource. While I don't have the patience for free shaping , I do use luring, capturing and blocking. Clicker training does not work on all dogs. It does not work on deaf dogs because they cannot hear the click. However another marker can be used like a flash light. Marker training is the proper term for the technique. I also know that there are three other squares in the operant conditioning box where marker training comes from. Karen Pryor was a student of B.F. Skinner and several of his proteges. BF Skinner developed the learning theory of operant conditioning.

I'm not sure if this was some attempt at a passive-aggressive jab at me

 

Go back and reread my post. You were not being singled out. I'm bipolar but to my knowledge, passive-aggressive is not something of which I've been diagnosed. But no harm-no foul.

You maintain a steady "anti-rescue" type of remarks, in every post you put up, yet, you state things like...

 

I'm not sure as to whom this was directed at but I really don't have a stigma against shelter dogs. In fact I have several that I've done amazing things with. I'm also fostering an insane one. However as a realist I know that they are not for everyone.

Fuzzy

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Will a clicker work for my dog, who is deaf? So NO, not all training works for ALL dogs. A blind or deaf dog can be trained, but not with the all magical clicker...hate those darn things, whether they work or not, so just because it works for a dog doesn't mean the owner may want to train that way, so in order to prevent resistance using the "my way and only my way" is best approach, you need to adjust to the needs of your pets AND your clients, which allows you to reach more people, thus improving the lives of more dogs and their owners. There is never only one way to do anything.

Wow, I explain that I feel that all breeders are not the base of all that is evil in the world and that shelters and rescues need to adjust their requirements in order to better ensure more of their dogs find homes and I am labeled as "anti-rescue". You quoted what I had put in a post, but the remarks you put after my words had nothing to do with anything I have said.

Let's just skip all the mixed up junk and agree to disagree about whether or not pets should be purchased from breeders. My main question and interest had to do with whether or not you agreed that shelters could adjust their requirements so that more pets could get homes. I feel that it doesn't matter if a person can afford anything other than food and a roof over a pets head, so long as they love them and care for them they should be allowed to adopt a pet. I don't care if that pet never recieves a vaccine, so long as they are spayed/neutered at the shelter, or if the pet only gets fed the cheapest dog food off the shelf. Shelther people need to get their priorities straight, which is finding decent homes for every pet possible. A person doesn't have to be willing to spend their life savings on a pet if they get sick, doesn't have to be willing to let them sleep in bed with them or treat them as if they are one of their children.

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Main reason we have too many dogs in the dog pounds

is

we have too many dogs.

Exactly, so we need to work on getting more pets adopted from shelters and work on decreasing the amount of pets purchased from unethical back yard breeders, not just any breeders in general.

When you try to get people to never purchase a dog ever, you will meet resistance and lose your audience, thus losing a chance to connect with that person and many others through that person. Instead educated them on how to purchase from an ethical breeder...find out why they want a pet in the first place....hunting, protection, companion? When you find out what they want and talk to them about etical breeders, then you mention shelters or rescues, how their are many pets their that can do the same thing they want from a breeder dog with the added benefit of saving money and saving a pets life.

You don't shove shove shove it in their face, you have to ease it in there, make it make sense to them. I learned the hard way that trying to push things on a client only made them run the other way and I lost out on getting that pet whatever care I felt they needed. It took me many years to learn subtlety, but, eventually I became that person who everyone sent the most difficult clients to and more often than not I would come out of the ring with the pet as the winner and the owner not knowing that it wasn't all their idea in the first place.

The client, the pet owner, IS THE KEY...you have to find out what to say to that PARTICULAR PERSON, what works for them, not what works for you. You have to have a BAG of tricks, not just one method.

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I'm a realist. My idealism left the room when Reagan was elected the first time QUOTE-Not trying to highjack the thread but I love THAT comment!

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Oh, another thing I just thought of...

I have had several clients come it that have purchased from unethical back yard breeders and they were suspicious that they were what they should avoid, but they felt bad for the pet, picturing them living in the horrid conditions that they have heard about, so they purchase the pet anyway, feeling that they are rescuing the pet, which they are, but they are also still contributing to the the problem. Then they bring the pet in and find out all the problems they will face in the future with this pet they've just rescued, because we get to tell them, after an exam, all the health problems they have and how much it will cost to treat...ringworm, heartworms, dermatitis, messed up joints, etc.

So we can educate people all we want about back yard breeders and some will still be bought, if only to be "rescued".

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Way behind, but, clicker training does work on all dogs, yes, even deaf dogs, only a flashlight is substituted. I have a pal who has multiple deaf doxies, (from backyard breeders who did not know what they were doing, and bred 2 merles)

who are all clicker trained.

She has TONS of videos of her clicker training her deaf doxies all over youtube, happy to post 'em.

She herself calls it clicker training, EXACT SAME CONCEPT. One does not have to use an actual clicker---one gal i know uses a loud ink pen, a deaf dog can be CLICKER TRAINED with a flashlight,

it is the METHOD, the CONCEPT, of clicker training

which

does

work

for

all

dogs.

Again, if you are having trouble clicker training a specific behavior, msg me, or post it here:

Dog Trick Academy - Fresh Dog Tricks Ideas for Dog Owners

gotta go, see ya later. CLICKER TRAINING DOES WORK ON ALL DOGS, it is the METHOD, which IS eggggzactly the same. The marker can vary, but, YES, there IS a METHOD which does work on all dogs.

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I pre-apologize for my last post above, i DO think i have mixed up names, gotten blurry about which person or post i was replying to, or "trying" to reply to, i am sorry.

and sorry, i have editted my last post, so, it says different things NOW, than it did 5 minutes ago..sorry.

//" You quoted what I had put in a post, but the remarks you put after my words had nothing to do with anything I have said"//

I knew this was coming, and have pre-apologized twice, both in FIRST line of the post, as well as here. in whole other post, so it could be easily seen,

again, i am sorry, i got blurry as to which person i was replying TO. sorry sorry sorry.

//"Let's just skip all the mixed up junk and agree to disagree about whether or not pets should be purchased from breeders."//

Other than mixing up a few people who are sometimes posting similar ideas, i do not see where anything i posted is "mixed up".

You are free to skip that angle of the discussion, and hold the views you have now. Like someone said, getting people to consider new ideas, is hard to do with humans.

I am free to encourage others to evaluate if their reason to support a backyard breeder, or prefer a dog "with papers" is even slightly rooted in anything rational.

again, i have stated multiple times, there can be a rational reason to breed a dog, there can be a rational reason to buy a dog, but,

the average person seeking a pet dog,

In the midst of the dog overpopulation crisis,

should evaluate if their reason to support a backyard breeder is rational. It's probably NOT a rational reason.

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