Are Obama and Warren right about Economics? - page 3

by Spidey's mom Guide

2,879 Visits | 65 Comments

Because we've got so many threads going on the politics of the day and this issue comes up on all of them, I decided to start a thread strictly devoted to Obama and Warren's idea that we do not achieve things in life without the... Read More


  1. 1
    Quote from Spidey's mom
    Heron . .thanks for biting.
    Honest questions deserve an honest answer
    herring_RN likes this.
  2. 0
    Quote from Tweety
    Interesting spin...they wanted the money but couldn't wait...and very good idea, think of the money we'll save if we did away with the stimulus and roads projects and made people do it themselves.

    Do they still get the money or is it gone forever now that did it themselves.
    I would certainly hope that the private citizens (and/or private businesses) that fronted the money for the repair work would be reimbursed.

    Your question of whether the money is "gone forever now" that the work is done is curious to me. I imagine that the funds that were to have been budgeted for this project probably far exceeded the actual cost. Do you believe that the local government should receive the full budgeted amount anyway?
  3. 1
    Can't do anything without the government? Well maybe because democrats like Obama, Warren and perhaps some republicans have enabled this country to turn into basically a welfare state on many levels.

    What started out as a noble goal, to help persons and businesses get over a bad economic patch such as the Great Depression has morphed into a cottage industry of government spending plans.

    You want to see the difference between attitudes? Look at recent immigrants either illegal or legal. By and large many of these persons have the same moral and work ethic our grandparents, and greatparents had when they came from the "old country". One got every morning and put in a hard days work at something. Children went to school and *learned* in order to reap the benefits this new country had to offer.

    People who come here from places where government intervention is nil to limited and therefore aren't used to having things handed to them, get to work. Yes, some do help themselves to too much, but most are some of the hardest working people you can meet. Why? Knowing aren't eligble for most government benefits so it is either work or starve.

    Public education has become another racket for various companies and such to feed of public tax dollars. Am sure Mr. & Mrs. Gates and their ilk mean well, but since when has public education been run and or policy dictated to by someone's personal non-profit group? Those of us who went to school say <1980's or so often received good to excellent public school education without some La-di-Da men and women swanning into our schools telling our teachers and parents what was "wrong" with us and how we were being educated.

    Yes, some persons made bad decisions and or were taken advantage of during the run up to this latest economic crisis/credit meltdown. But that does not mean we're all stupid and require nurse-maiding by the federal government.
    VivaLasViejas likes this.
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    Quote from Jolie
    I would certainly hope that the private citizens (and/or private businesses) that fronted the money for the repair work would be reimbursed.

    Your question of whether the money is "gone forever now" that the work is done is curious to me. I imagine that the funds that were to have been budgeted for this project probably far exceeded the actual cost. Do you believe that the local government should receive the full budgeted amount anyway?
    My point was they weren't objecting to public funds with an attitude of "they didn't build that", they were objecting to the wait, not government assistance, they really wanted the assitance.

    Certainly they should be reimbursed of the cost. I wonder if they would have gotten six million would they have spent six million on the same project...makes you wonder about waste, or would have gone under budget and kept the money for other things.
    aknottedyarn and herring_RN like this.
  5. 4
    For anyone who's interested, here's a response to the WSJ op-ed cited in the OP on the origins of the internet:

    Who invented the Internet?: The outrageous conservative claim that every tech innovation came from private enterprise. - Slate Magazine
    Crovitz’s entire yarn is almost hysterically false. He gets basic history wrong, he gets the Internet’s defining technologies wrong, and, most importantly, he misses the important interplay between public and private funds that has been necessary for all great modern technological advances.

    If you spend time looking at the history of the Internet, you’ll find the government there at every step. Researchers working directly for the government and at university labs funded by the government were some of the first people on the planet to think up a worldwide network, and, at the beginning, they were the only people working to build such an outlandish thing. That’s not true just of the Internet. Pop open your smartphone and you’ll find government research at the heart of just about every component, from the batteries to the GPS chip to the microprocessor to the multitouch interface.
    I bolded the phrase about interplay because it points to the reason I find this particular discussion so frustrating. Most of what I read seems to want to prove one sector or the other is solely responsible for economic stability and prosperity, and the other should just knuckle under and submit. Black/white, either/or, zero-sum krep. Phooey!

    Those of us educated here in the US have been raised on tales of the cotton gin, Edison and the internal combustion engine ... inventions by individuals that revolutionized society and created whole industries. I think those stories have given rise to a fantasy of the Gaultian super-hero, single handedly creating whole realities out of thin air with no help from anyone else. That fantasy is just as dangerous as the progressive fantasy of the lion lying down with the lamb and everyone living happily ever after.

    Conservatives are right in saying that having government, whether local or larger, interfering where there is no real need is simple totalitarianism. Profit-making is a perfectly legitimate motivation for any endeavor ... I certainly don't work for free and don't expect anyone else to do so either. I also expect to be left to my own devices as long as I'm not doing any damage. "Ain't nobody's business but my own ..."

    Progressives are right in saying that the way in which those profits are earned makes a difference to the well-being of the community as a whole. The community has a right and a responsibility to limit damage to itself and its members. Your right to earn a profit doesn't mean you get to poison my water unchallenged, especially if it's likely to kill me.

    I learned a long time ago that it's important, in any argument, to accept that the other side has legitimate points to make. It's the interplay between two (or more) legitimate viewpoints that is supposed to be the strength of our democratic process.

    Just as it's the interplay between public and private involvement that made our economy so strong, once upon a time.

    End of rant.
    Last edit by heron on Jul 25, '12 : Reason: wording change
    tewdles, aknottedyarn, azhiker96, and 1 other like this.
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    I understand the premise that a successful business is partly due to the infrastructure available in the US. One thing I disagree with is ignoring or highly discounting the taxes paid by that businessman, the business, and it's employees. Everyone who pays taxes helps fund the services and infrastructure provided by the government. A business uses roads to get their products to market. Everyone else also use those roads. I don't think that is a good reason to minimize the accomplishments of someone who has envisioned and built a business, especially a business that provides jobs.

    I think our government should be encouraging businessmen, not belittling them.
    VivaLasViejas and tntrn like this.
  7. 0
    who is belittling small business owners?
    my beloved uncle made his pest control business so successful orkin could not make it in that town.

    the president’s ad regarding small business --
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0yk5nakn2o&feature=youtu.be
  8. 1
    That's a great ad. It sounds much different than this speech the President made earlier.

    President Obama on business success - Obama: If You&#39;ve Got A Business, You Didn&#39;t Build That- YouTube
    VivaLasViejas likes this.
  9. 0
    That's a great ad. It sounds much different than this speech the President made earlier.

    President Obama on business success - Obama: If You&#39;ve Got A Business, You Didn&#39;t Build That - YouTube
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    This video includes Obama's full remarks on this topic.



    Remarks by the President | The White House
    “If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

    The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

    So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That’s how we funded the GI Bill. That’s how we created the middle class. That’s how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That’s how we invented the Internet. That’s how we sent a man to the moon. We rise or fall together as one nation and as one people, and that’s the reason I’m running for president — because I still believe in that idea. You’re not on your own, we’re in this together.”
    Today in lazy mendacity | Jonathan Bernstein - Washington Post
    The latest outrage is this quote from Barack Obama: “If you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that.” Heritage says that this was a “slap in the face to hard-working Americans.” Rush Limbaugh’s item on it titled “Barack Obama Hates This Country.” Fox News headlined their item “Obama to business owners: ‘You didn't build that.’”

    Look at the full quote, however, and you’ll see that Obama was riffing on the Elizabeth Warren theme of how no one succeeds on their own. By “you didn’t build that,” Obama clearly means business-people didn’t build “the unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive.”

    This is basically just “American exceptionalism” again: take something the president said out of context, and repeat it no matter how often it gets explained and debunked. The question is: why resort to cheap, lazy tricks like that, instead of making an actual case based on what Obama has actually said and done?

    The obvious answer is that the Fox/Limbaugh Republican-aligned media don’t care. There’s no incentive for anyone to make a careful argument when lazy lies will be broadcast just as much, and just as efficiently. The result isn’t just mendacity; it’s lazy mendacity, whether it’s pulling a quote out of context or claiming that John Kerry only released two years of tax returns when in fact it was twenty.

    Why not claim the president hates small business people, when saying he does will get you (within the Republican Party and media) amply rewarded for it?
    Elvish and herring_RN like this.


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