Would like opinions

  1. My hubby and I were talking about this "different kind of war" that the president keeps talking about. We've had many dinner table discussions with our two teen sons also.

    What we see going on right now, in our opinion, is the psych phase of it. Pretty much scaring the beejeesus out of people in Afghanistan and surrounding countries. One question that keeps coming up is what is our government going to do if they do turn over Bin Ladin? Are we still going to conduct a massive war? Or will we back off and will it become covert operations.

    Our whole family feels that this is more like a drug lord. Even if they turn him over, there is going to be someone to take his place and continue this war and terrorist attacks on America.

    Any other opinions?
  2. 19 Comments

  3. by   Q.
    I agree.

    For one, if they turned over bin Laden, the only authority we would have is to trial and punish him for his crimes. Legally, we cannot assassinate. And you are very right, there are several who are willing, able and ready to take his place. There was a spot on 60 minutes 2 weeks ago in which village boys in Pakistan were interviewed, and when asked if bin Laden died, what would they do? They said "it wouldn't matter" (highlighting their obvious lack of regard for human life) because "for every bin Laden, there are 10 more ready to take over for him.

    In my opinion, "a war on terrorism" is going to be lifelong and very difficult. It's like a "war on crime" or "war on racism." In my opinion, unless you identify and execute every living person who supports terrorism, it will continue to thrive. And what happens when this war is not over, and Bush's term is over? What happens then?

    Scary, isn't it?
  4. by   fergus51
    Originally posted by Susy K

    Scary, isn't it?
    That pretty much sums it up! It's terrifying to think about.
  5. by   roachell
    It looks like it will be guerrilla war, if it is only Bin Laden not Iraq. I think it would make me feel a lot better if bombed the "beejeesus" out of them. But as fergus has pointed out in many other posts; That would be stupid, for a multitude of reasons. I guess I have to agree. However it plays out, I really need to see that we have dealt out some retribution.

    It is pretty scary to think our kids will still be fighting this war long after we are gone.

    Wow fergus you agree with Susy K!?! Push me over with a feather! I guess you were right. We are all saying the samething.
  6. by   Chellyse66
    It is difficult to comment on this topic because it will open up a HUGE can of worms....
    I believe even if Bin Laden is handed over the war will be played out. Focusing on the "terrorists" but also against the Taleban itself (epitomy of terror) , Afghanistan (big Oil grounds), our position in the Middle East.
    It was known for sometime that prior to the attacks on the WTC, the US was planning "limited Military action" see article 1 & 2 below:

    article 1


    India and Iran will "facilitate" the planned US-Russia hostilities against the Taliban.

    By Our Correspondent

    26 June 2001: India and Iran will "facilitate" US and Russian plans for "limited military action" against the Taliban if the contemplated tough new economic sanctions don't bend Afghanistan's fundamentalist regime.

    The Taliban controls 90 per cent of Afghanistan and is advancing northward along the Salang highway and preparing for a rear attack on the opposition Northern Alliance from Tajikistan-Afghanistan border positions.

    Indian foreign secretary Chokila Iyer attended a crucial session of the second Indo-Russian joint working group on Afghanistan in Moscow amidst increase of Taliban's military activity near the Tajikistan border. And, Russia's Federal Security Bureau (the former KGB) chief Nicolai Patroshev is visiting Teheran this week in connection with Taliban's military build-up.

    Indian officials say that India and Iran will only play the role of "facilitator" while the US and Russia will combat the Taliban from the front with the help of two Central Asian countries, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, to push Taliban lines back to the 1998 position 50 km away from Mazar-e-Sharief city in northern Afghanistan.

    Military action will be the last option though it now seems scarcely avoidable with the UN banned from Taliban-controlled areas. The UN which adopted various means in the last four years to resolve the Afghan problem is now being suspected by the Taliban and refused entry into Taliban areas of the war-ravaged nation through a decree issued by Taliban chief Mullah Mohammad Omar last month.

    Diplomats say that the anti-Taliban move followed a meeting between US Secretary of State Collin Powel and Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov and later between Powell and Indian foreign minister Jaswant Singh in Washington. Russia, Iran and India have also held a series of discussions and more diplomatic activity is expected.

    The Northern Alliance led by ousted Afghan president Burhanuddin Rabbani and his military commander Ahmed Shah Masood have mustered Western support during a May 2001 visit to Dusseldorf, Germany.

    The Taliban is using high-intensity rockets and Soviet-made tanks to attack Northern Alliance fighters in the Hindukush range with alleged Pakistani aid. But Northern Alliance fighters have acquired anti-tank missiles from a third country that was used in the fight near Bagram Air Base in early June. The Taliban lost 20 fighters and fled under intense attack.

    Officials say that the Northern Alliance requires a "clean up" operation to reduce Taliban's war-fighting machinery to launch an attack against the Taliban advance to the Tajik-Afghan border. This "clean up" action is being planned by the US and Russia since the Taliban shows no "sign of reconciliation".

    Tajikistan and Uzbekistan will lead the ground attack with a strong military back up of the US and Russia. Vital Taliban installations and military assets will be targeted. India and Iran will provide logistic support. Russian President Vladimir Putin has already hinted of military action against the Taliban to CIS nation heads during a meeting in Moscow in early June.

    India and Iran have been assisting the Northern Alliance and the Afghan people under their humanitarian programme since Taliban's ouster of the Rabbani government in 1996. The US needs Russian assistance because of Soviet knowledge of the Afghan terrain. The former Soviet Union intervened in Afghanistan in 1979 and withdrew in 1989.

    Masood's strategic stronghold of Panjsher valley has been threatened by the advancing Taliban militia for the last three months. The Northern Alliance has stepped up its attack on Taliban troops who have brought the valley within artillery fire range.

    Military planners say that if Taliban were not given a blow now it would slowly make inroads into the Panjsher valley. The fall of Panjsher will enable Taliban to control the remaining 10 per cent of Afghanistan in possession of the Northern Alliance.

    Russia says it has evidence that the Taliban aims to create "liberated zones" all across Central Asia and Russia and links its Chechnya problem to the rise of Taliban fundamentalism. The US is directly hit by the anti-US thrust of Islamic groups who use Afghanistan as their base for terrorism and is demanding extradition of Osama Bin Laden to face trial in the embassy bombing case.

    Such Central Asian countries as Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan are threatened by the Taliban that is aiming to control their vast oil, gas and other resources by bringing Islamic fundamentalists into power. Now all the CIS nations are seeking assistance of Russia's Federal Border Guard Service to overcome the Taliban threat.

    General Konstantin Trotsky, director of the border force, said in a newspaper interview, "We are watching the opposition of the Northern Alliance and the Taliban in Afghanistan very closely."

    For its part, Shia Iran is reluctant to tolerate a Sunni militia regime on its border that gives Pakistan, a Sunni country and a sponsor of the Taliban, a "strategic sway" on considerable parts of the Iranian border. Iran is also affected by a Taliban-sponsored movement in Ispahan province where Sunnis have a sizable population.

    Iran is also worried over the unending war effort of the Taliban to get supremacy in Afghanistan that is harming Iran's economic interests. India, Iran and Russia, for example, are working on a broad plan to supply oil and gas to south Asia and southeast Asian nations through India but instability in Afghanistan is posing a great threat to this effort.

    Similarly, India is apprehensive about the increasing infiltration of Afghan-trained foreign mercenaries into Kashmir. Security agencies have reported that as many as 15,000 hardcore militants have received training in such places in Afghanistan as Khost, Jalalabad, Kabul and Kandahar since 1995. There are 55 terrorist training camps located in Afghanistan that are funded and aided by Islamic fundamentalists to carry out attacks against non-Islamic nations.

    The UN had sent a 12-member delegation to India in the first week of May to assess the feasibility of tough economic sanctions against Taliban. The same delegation met General Pervez Musharraf to convince him about the importance of Pakistani cooperation. The UN believes that the sanctions can be only as tough as Pakistan desires.

    India's official position is for a "peaceful and lasting solution" to the Afghan problem. But it strongly advocates strict economic sanctions against Taliban and is also not averse to a "limited military action" to weaken it.

    India plans to raise the Afghanistan issue in the forthcoming G-8 summit in Geneva in mid-July.

    article 2


    US 'planned attack on Taleban'

    The wider objective was to oust the Taleban

    By the BBC's George Arney
    A former Pakistani diplomat has told the BBC that the US was planning military action against Osama Bin Laden and the Taleban even before last week's attacks.

    Niaz Naik, a former Pakistani Foreign Secretary, was told by senior American officials in mid-July that military action against Afghanistan would go ahead by the middle of October.

    Russian troops were on standby

    Mr Naik said US officials told him of the plan at a UN-sponsored international contact group on Afghanistan which took place in Berlin.

    Mr Naik told the BBC that at the meeting the US representatives told him that unless Bin Laden was handed over swiftly America would take military action to kill or capture both Bin Laden and the Taleban leader, Mullah Omar.

    The wider objective, according to Mr Naik, would be to topple the Taleban regime and install a transitional government of moderate Afghans in its place - possibly under the leadership of the former Afghan King Zahir Shah.

    Mr Naik was told that Washington would launch its operation from bases in Tajikistan, where American advisers were already in place.

    Bin Laden would have been "killed or captured"

    He was told that Uzbekistan would also participate in the operation and that 17,000 Russian troops were on standby.

    Mr Naik was told that if the military action went ahead it would take place before the snows started falling in Afghanistan, by the middle of October at the latest.

    He said that he was in no doubt that after the World Trade Center bombings this pre-existing US plan had been built upon and would be implemented within two or three weeks.

    And he said it was doubtful that Washington would drop its plan even if Bin Laden were to be surrendered immediately by the Taleban
  7. by   donmurray
    To paraphrase Henry Kissinger, " An army has to win a war to gain victory, a guerrilla just has to not lose " This war will last years, and Bin Laden is just the first of many terrorist leaders around the globe, but it has to be done.

    There! I agreed with Suzy K too! I'm off for a lie down!
  8. by   fergus51
    Originally posted by roachell
    Wow fergus you agree with Susy K!?! Push me over with a feather! I guess you were right. We are all saying the samething.
    I've actually agreed with her before as shocking as it may seem. I think we all want the same thing here: safety. We just don't always know or agree on how to atain it. Some want retaliation because they think fear will prevent more attacks. I'm afraid an unthoughtful retaliation will cause more attacks. The hope is the same. No more days like 9-11.

    Don, that just rings so true. All our military might doesn't really protect us from attacks like this and I don't know if it ever will. I heard a commentator on CNN talking about this and the Vietnam war. He pointed out that we lost that war without ever having lost a strategically important battle. I don't know that "war" is even the right word for what we are going to be experiencing. It's so unlike our idea of normal warfare.
  9. by   essarge
    I have heard Viet Nam mentioned several times also. I think, besides the loss of life, that one of my concerns is also the veterans of this "war". Being a Viet Nam Era veteran myself, I remember all too well what the government did to us because they had never "legally" claimed Viet Nam was a WAR....they used the term "CONFLICT", thus not allowing allot of benefits to the veterans that would have otherwise been available.

    Has anyone heard how the veterans of this "conflict/war" are going to be treated by our government for fighting in the "conflict/war"?
  10. by   Mijourney
    Hi essarge. For the USA, I believe that for now that we can no longer look for security solely in conventional methods of warfare to fight hate and terroism. I do believe that this is a war. No matter what administration is in the White House or what the make up of the Congress is, from now on, these entities will be responsible for setting the tone and strategy for future governments to use to fight hate and terroism. We can ill afford to have the equivalent of shift turfs that is so rappant in nursing. Each change with elections or appointments in our government should not cause a radical shift of ideology or methods in addressing hate and terroism. Instead each administration should be able to build off the previous and should convey it to the public as such. The type of hate and terroism that we're dealing with now requires that even the average American get over our strong ideological views for the sake of security for we will surely fall as a nation if we don't. This will be a long drawn out war that will continue to the end of time. We as a nation, as a global community, can slowly overcome much of hate and terror just by our individual actions.
  11. by   essarge
    Hi Mi! Well said! I totally agree that each governent should build on the other. I think that is what our fore fathers intended, not the I'm this party and your that party crap we have heard for soooo many years! Perhaps, just perhaps, this terrible thing that has happened may actually teach our government that they need to work together as a team, not as opposing teams. Maybe nursing could take a que from this also as a lesson to be learned.

    Everyone is very right when they say that this is going to be a very long fight, and it does my heart good to see so many humanitarian countries coming together to fight this. The one problem I have though is these countries that want money to help...I am very offended by this. How about you?
  12. by   kaycee
    I agree this is going to be a long struggle. Some of it we will hear about and some we won't. I know I might sound selfish, but my greatest fear is they will need to reintroduce the draft. My son is 16. I don't want him to go fight in a war. I know he would go if he had to, and I would support him but I can't even imagine that. It really scares me!
  13. by   essarge

    I too have two sons, 16 & 17. I've heard talk that they are looking at possibly re-instituting the draft, but in reality it would take a very long time to have that happen. They would have to open enough facilities to house and train all of the young people that would be drafted. On the other hand, if they wanted too, it seems that they could re-institute the lottery. That's where they randomly draw social security numbers and that is how the draft system works. They did that in the 70's when they were phasing out the draft. I don't see that happening any time to soon either, there are allot of people volunteering now so until that drops off, I don't think that they will be doing anything as drastic as the draft.
  14. by   Joules
    This information is from the DebkaFiles (http://www.debka.com)

    23 September: As US sea-air armadas, destroyers, air fleets and Special Service units speed east to make war on terrorism, the opposition makes its own preparations quietly and in the dark. The ex-Saudi terror master Osama Bin Laden is generally presented as being on the run, dodging with a small band from one hideout to another in the UruzgaMountains north of Kahandar and south of Hindu Kush, to escape the mighty force out to get him. Some reports place him in hiding in Somalia. The truth is that no one - including western intelligence agencies - knows where he is.
    What DEBKAfile's intelligence and military sources can say is that Bin Laden and his senior commanders, far from giving up the flight, are in fact busy preparing their next offensive against the US, Britain, Saudi Arabia, the Gulf Emirates, Egypt and Israel - all affirmed targets of the jihad he has declared against America and everything its stands for.
    Bin Laden and his ilk do not practice Western military doctrines. The concepts of military hierarchy, with its generals and colonels, general staffs and operational, air intelligence and naval intelligence branches, are all alien to Bin Laden and his band.
    This is quite deliberate. Bin Laden keeps his men untouched by Western military thinking and formats for two reasons:
    1. To prevent his men's exposure to Western culture, while creating a milieu in which any Western penetration agent will soon be spotted.
    2. A preference for traditional Islamic fighting methods, mostly taken from the early days of conquering Islam - the 7th century, when the Caliph Omar prevailed over the Byzantine Empire, and the 11th century, when Saladin defeated the European Crusaders.
    Saladin, who was not an Arab but a Seljuk from Asia Minor, built his army around a very small command of adherents and a large international pool of reservists, who were called up for major battles by a dozen or so runners, who traveled to the different countries and activated local couriers in relays for posting call-up summons in the towns and villages.
    DEBKAfile 's military and intelligence sources report that Bin Laden's courier squad of half a dozen runners went into action on September 9, two days before the four hijacked airliners rammed the WorldTradeCenter in New York and the Pentagon in Washington. They spread out in two destinations. One group headed for the Islamic madrassas, Islamic schools and colleges of Afghanistan, where 40,000 of the more than one million students, Afghans and foreigners, have embraced the jihad mission under Bin Laden's leadership. A second group went round the 10,000 madrassas of Pakistan, where Bin Laden can count on a further 70,000 jihad devotees.
    The conscripts were issued with their personal weapons early last week from central armories serving each cluster of madrassas.
    These schools are not colleges in the Western sense, but training and indoctrination academies breeding militant zealots for battle and self-sacrifice. These future recruits to Bin Laden's Moslem internationale are subjected to rigorous training disciplines in guerrilla and urban combat, sabotage, the making and use of bombs, simple weaponry for use against planes, helicopters and tanks and endurance in harsh conditions deprived of water and food for long periods.
    This is not a ragged rabble, but a well-drilled, dedicated Islamic legion of at least 110,000 zealots, raring to take on Western armies and unafraid of elite US Delta, Rangers and Seals or British S.A.S. commandos descending on their strongholds.
    Indeed some of the instructors teaching the students the arts of war may have received their own training at the hands of American Moslem commando instructors, attached at different periods to US 101st or 82nd Airborne Divisions. How these Moslem Americans reached the most violent Islamic training grounds in the world will be described elsewhere. Suffice it to say that the Islamic army congregating in Afghanistan under the Bin Laden banner is a fighting force as formidable in its own way as the military might the United States and the British are assembling to eradicate it.
    Some 3,500 hard core senior officers serving in Bin Laden's training bases in Afghanistan have taken command of the gathering army.
    DEBKAfile's military sources confirm at least one initial engagement between US elite forces who have crossed from neighboring Tadjikistan, a former Soviet republic, into southeast Afghanistan since Saturday, September 22. They were Led through the mountains by Russian intelligence officers familiar with Afghan frontier terrain and Tadjik and Pushtun smugglers associated with Russian intelligence. There was another brush Saturday, between British SAS units who entered Afghanistan from the north and linked up with the Afghan general Rashid Dustum, an Uzbek, and a Bin Laden band. Members of the British force penetrated Afghan military lines and reached the outskirts of Kabul.
    DEBKAfile's military sources are quite clear that the coming war will be fought both inside and outside Afghanistan, and that its tempo, scale, arena and intensity will not be dictated by the Americans alone.
    Al Qaeda is an international association of allied groups operating in many parts of the world.
    Its top commanders are:
    AYMAN AL ZAWAHRI, head of the Egyptian Jihad Islami, who is Bin Laden's senior deputy and heir apparent
    JUMMA MAMANGANI, an Uzbek, who was recently appointed Al Qaeda chief of operations. He is former commander of the Moslem Army for the Liberation of Kyrgistan. Three key Afghan training camps, at Jalalabad, Farmada and Daronta, are under his command.
    FATEH KAMEL, who leads the most militant cells of the extremist Algerian GIA. In the name of Al Qaida, he controls terrorist cells in the United States, Canada and Algeria.
    MUHAMMED ATIF aka SUBHI ABU-SITTAH, who is nominal chief of staff of the network and its brightest military brain. He comes from the Egyptian Jihad Islami
    IMAD MUGHNIYEH, the former Lebanese Hizballah hostage-taker and bomber, who is in charge of the combined terrorist campaign around the Middle East, the Persian Gulf, Europe and Israel.
    On top of the 3,500 hard core commanders and 110,000 Afghan and Pakistani troops, Al Qaeda retains another 6400 commanders in 12 centers: North America, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Albania, Kosovo, Algeria, Chechenya, Tadjikistan and all the former Soviet republics of Central Asia, the Philippines, Egypt, Ethiopia and Somalia.
    The numbers Bin Laden can muster differs from place to place. In North America, together with his closest ally, the Egyptian Jihad Islami, some 2,500 hard core fighting men; in Yemen, where his family originated before migrating to Saudi Arabia - 2000 directly. But Bin Laden has a special relationship with the commanders of the 20,000-man strong irregular "Moslem Liberation Army, which hold a monopoly of the arms trade of the Arabian Peninsula, the Horn of Africa, the Red Sea and East Africa. Its reach sometimes goes as far as Iran.
    Bin Laden often serves as the MLA's clearing bank and ready bankroll for arms deal.
    In Saudi Arabia, where the privileged and affluent Bin Laden clan lives, Osama commands some 200-250 hard-core commanders, but many more potential partisans among the disaffected tribes in the central and eastern provinces, especially the Nejd, as well as in the Saudi armed forces and national guard.
    An intensive Al Qaeda recruitment effort in those two Saudi forces could cause their collapse and drop in Bin Laden's lap their arsenals, with some of the most sophisticated hardware in use today.
    According to conservative estimates, the millionaire-terrorist could most probably rally around the world roughly the same number of fighting men as those flocking to his flag in Afghanistan and Pakistan, namely an army of over 200,000 men. Many members of his overseas legions are available for both sustained and for one-time operations. In between, they simply go back to their normal pursuits and their homes in host countries. They are also available for terrorist operations on their home ground.