What have these people done to be sentenced to death?

  1. The following was taken from http//www.rawa.org
    Afghan refugees eating grass, freezing temperature kills 18 children

    The News: Jang, Jan.11, 2001



    JALLOZAI, Pakistan: UN refugee officials appealed for urgent donor aid on Wednesday to help save the lives of thousands of Afghan refugees pouring into Pakistan, some of whom had been reduced to eating grass.

    The UN High Commissioner for Rewfugees (UNHCR) is finding it hard to cope with the flow of refugees from Afghanistan where warfare, the worst drought in 30 years and a ruined economy have forced people to flee.

    UN officials at Jallozai camp, 112 km (70 miles) west of Islamabad, said they expected 8,000 more families, or 40,000 people, to arrive in Pakistan over the next three months. "Jallozai is a makeshift site. It is an open place. People are exposed to the freezing weather. There is no proper shelter, no sanitation or (clean) water facilities," said Yusuf Hassan, UNHCR's senior regional external affairs officer for the southwest and central Asian region.

    Cold, disease and malnutrition have killed several children at the camp, though nobody appears to know how many. UNHCR's emergency coordinator at the camp, Mohammad Abdi Adar, said there had been child deaths due to cold and disease but he could not give an exact figure. Some refugees said 70 children had died but officials put the toll at only seven.

    "We have reports of seven children dying at this site due to freezing temperatures...and that is why we are racing against time to move them to a place where they have shelter, food and other facilities," Hassan said.

    "We are informing the donors of this particular crisis and we hope they will respond favourably so that we can alleviate...and save lives," he added. Most of the new arrivals at Jallozai are from northern Afghanistan where conditions were even more inhospitable. "The mortality rate among children under five is 5.2 per 10,000 per day. This means 13 deaths out of 697 children under five over a period of 36 days," said a survey conducted by Medecins sans Frontiers on nutrition and mortality in one district of the northern Afghan province of Faryab. "People are reduced to eating roots and grass, almost all young men are reported to have left the area," said a recent UN report.

    It said northern Afghanistan had been badly affected by drought and conflict. "In 2000, the wheat crop dropped by 65 percent in rainfed areas and by 30 percent in irrigated areas, compared to 1999," the report said.

    Jallozai camp has housed about 200,000 Afghan refugees in the last 20 years after the start of the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in 1979. The current crisis began when a new wave of refugees started arriving in large numbers.
    ************************************************** **
    What have these people done to deserve death? Does being born into poverty and a country in which you have no voice mean you should be killed by the enemy of the government that's already killing you? I can't understand the blood lust that we as american's have. Go to the site, read the articles, look at the pic's..look into the eyes of the innocent children...do you really think they should die so WE can prove a point??? These people are pitiful...their lives are already a living hell. Most of them probably welcome the thought of death, it'd be peace at last.

    Many of you consider yourself educated, and defend your lust for killing these people by your education. What is truly educated? From whom were you educated on these people? Until I began seeking more info on the Afgan's and trying to draw an unbiased opinion, I too, wanted them all deported and the country wiped out. Now, my heart aches for these people as much as it does for my own country. Many of you will think this unpatriotic, and if the desire to allow these people to live is unpatriotic, then you can call me what you may. Our war is NOT with the Afgan people, it's with the Taliban. Did we punish our entire country when Timothy McVeigh bombed Oaklahoma City? Do we kill our innocent civilians when a madman kills his family? No. These people no more allowed these terrorist to commit this ungodly act than we allow our own sick minded people to kill.

    I can not make myself believe that the God I know, the God I trust and the God I worship wants his people of Afganistan killed, any more than he wanted last week's victims killed.

    God is love. Killing innocent civilians is not a loving act!
    •  
  2. 36 Comments

  3. by   fergus51
    Tracy,
    I can't tell you how comforting it is to hear a voice of reason. I can understand why people want Afghanistan bombed (and maybe it will come to that) but I don't understant the apathy we have at killing these poor people who had nothing to do with the attack on America. Even if it is inevitable that they will die because of this, we should at least feel bad about that shouldn't we? I think and hope that most Americans do sympathize with innocent victims whether they be from NY or Kabul. I hope the "bloodlust" is only a product of rage and that it will fade as we heal.

    ps
    I am soooo glad you went to the rawa site. They are a truly worthy cause to support and awareness is the beginning of change. I hope everyone learns about how horrificly this gov't treats its people and I hope that our anger at the terrorism will finally lead to the downfall of the Taliban. They are truly scary and pervert Islam to opress their own people. It's disgusting
  4. by   misti_z
    Exactly what I want. I want bin Laden and anyone in this with him, anyone hiding him, anyone protecting him, anyone supporting him to be punished. If I had my way, like I'm sure everyone else, I would like to see just the above stated punished--I wish this is realistic, but unfortunately I don't think this is the way it is going to happen.

    I enjoyed your post. Thanks
  5. by   Q.
    Tracy,

    I really, truly understand your point of view. I see what you are trying to say. But honestly, with a few exceptions, I don't think that most Americans WANT to kill "innocent" people. But my stance is, as I think others are, that in the effort of destroying the ones responsibile, the innocent ones will suffer. It is inevitable.

    The other option is NOT punish those responsible - in a effort to spare the innocent ones. And I guess that THAT option scares me more. Scares me more than the thought of fighting a war to ensure OUR freedoms in America and our prosperity and our national security. Doesn't it you?

    Truly Tracy, I want to debate this with you, as I know that you and I usually think alike, and this is the first topic that you and I have disagreed on. We are friends and I think that you and I can have this kind of intelligent debate. I truly want to understand you as I want you to understand me.
  6. by   nurs4kids
    lol, suz,
    You're my sis, girl!
    I understand where you're coming from, and I know you pretty well and our desires aren't that different. I, like you, want to see...need to see those responsible punished..hell, I want to see them killed.

    BUT...I still think a better way, rather than just bullheadedly marching into a country and killing innocent people, would be for our country to do a thorough investigation and go after the terrorist and those involved. Isn't it amazing that our gov't knew absolutely nothing about the plans to bomb the wtc, yet after the fact they are able to compile tons of info, leads, etc.? They obviously weren't trying very hard to prevent a situation like 9-11. Now, with the wake up call we were given, I feel we are more apt to prevent future attacks on american soil. We, as Amercan's, believe everything our gov't tells us, we believe most of what our press tells us. Does it not bother you, just a little, that the American Red Cross is still begging for blood donors "to aid in the WTC victims relief"? Blood for what??? How much blood can you give dead people??? If it were worded so that they were promoting donations aimed at future use for our military, I could live with it..but no, they insist on playing on American sympathy. Just another case of how average america is played as fools. I'm mad. I'm mad as hell at the terrorist, and I'm mad at the American government. It is THEIR responsibility to prevent things like this from happening, THEY make the big bucks, we sign their paychecks...blindly. I have a huge distrust for politicians..and it's growing larger. I have other hypothesis over our government and how this whole thing relates, but they are premature and would sound ridiculous posted on this bb right now.

    Being raised in the South, I have seen what racism does to people. It destroys everyone involved. Be it black, white, mexican, catholic, baptist, muslim, etc. we are all in the same world..human nature has the same needs. Maslow's needs for one race are no different from those of another. The Afgan's basic needs are not being met..how can we expect them to live and think as American's? And is it fair to expect everyone to live and think as America?

    The ONLY thing that has really disturbed me over this war issue is the lust of american's to destroy all Muslim's, the attitudes we have had about the Muslim's living in America. I know you, like myself, have no desire to kill the innocent. That's not the attitude of many, even here on this board. Many here make no bones about it..they want them all killed. We lost innocent lives, they should loose some in return..."eye for an eye..." . I'm not opposed to "an eye for an eye...", but I do think we should be damn sure we're blinding the guilty ones, and protect the vision of the innocent as much as possible.

    We will never go to war with one Middle Eastern country. Especially over this issue. If we were there to protect one country that another was attempting to overthrow, then we might be fighting one country. BUT, mark my word, we will be fighting several countries..perhaps a couple of big countries also. Are we ready for this? Are we truly prepared for WWIII? I'm not. I'd rather be confident, which again, I'm not, that the threat of terrorist attacks here is minimum. A war right now will greatly distract our government from here and take the focus there. Have they had enough time to secure us from any attacks already in the making? If the terrorist are already here, is bombing Afghanastan going to deter them or is it going to piss them off more? I think our first move should have been to deport ILLEGAL aliens and secure our borders. I want to be safe today as well as tomorrow.

    So, sistah...As always, I greatly respect your opinions and knowledge. We can debate until we're blue in the face and I'll still love and respect you! I'm not closed minded enough to think I'm totally correct, nor am I unwilling to change my feelings. I read every post with total objectivity..that's the only way to educate yourself. But, in the past few days, I've yet to read anything that leads me another direction. You know I started out with the hate and blood lust of most. The more I read, the more I've researched, and the more I saw the hate grow..I began moving away from that hate. Hate scares me..always has. The hate in the 1960's South that I've heard about and seen video's of, makes me sick to my stomach. The racial hatred I continue to see today, all across America, makes me sick. Whites hating blacks, blacks hating whites, whites hating mexicans, blacks hating mexicans, mexicans hating..etc. You get the picture, it's a viscious circle. I'm not about to jump on the road to hate. I'm claiming I have no prejudice, of course I do. Through my prejudice, I have no desire to harm, no desire to hate, only a desire to see change.

    I'm frustrated..frustrated as hell. This is not what I had planned for the next few years. I know it isn't what the 5000+ victims had planned either. I want justice..I only want to be sure justice is just. We can debate it, which I don't mind OR we can agree to disagree, which I don't mind either

    Bring it back at me!! You'll still be my sistah!!!!!!

    Trac

    p.s. As unpatriotic as I may sound, I love my country and will stand 100% behind the boys and men in the military. I would give my own life for this country. I just wish we could look in our own mirror before breaking someone else's.
    Last edit by nurs4kids on Sep 19, '01
  7. by   NurseStudentFall01
    I can see both sides of this situation. Nurs4kids, you make good points. But like Susy K said, I don't think anyone wants innocent people to die. Yes, many Afghans are poor, hungry, homeless and horribly mistreated by the Taliban. I'm sure they want the Taliban wiped out more than we do. But the fact remains that the 2 major forces in these people's lives, the Taliban and their religion, are both telling them to fight and kill Americans. They will fight us and we'll have to fight back.

    I've edited this post to add a link of an interview ABC did with bin Laden in February. Scary stuff!

    http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world...n1_981228.html
    Last edit by NurseStudentFall01 on Sep 21, '01
  8. by   shyviolet78
    Why should our government show sympathy for Afghanistan citizens when Afghanistan itself doesn't? They refuse to hand over bin Laden to the authorities--apparently protecting him is more important than protecting their own innocent citizens. Or maybe we should just let these acts go unpunished so all the innocent Afghan children can grow up and attend terrorist training camps and attack our innocent children without any repercussions.
  9. by   NurseStudentFall01
    Fergus,
    You're out of line telling me I need to educate myself. I know precisely what I'm talking about. I'm not claiming a precise understanding of the Koran, or even the Bible for that matter, but I do know that many Muslims interpret the Koran to mean that holy war is honorable, both killing for and being killed in a holy war is considered an honorable thing. It's widely known that Muslims kill each other based on different interpretations of the Koran. Do you honestly believe they wouldn't fight us?

    I'm editing again because I've just read your last comment. The point I'm trying to make is that these poor, hungry citizens of Afghanistan could very possibly be recruited into fighting against us. I don't really think they have the freedom of choice to say, "No thanks Taliban, no thanks Mr. bin Laden, I don't think I'll fight in the holy war today...I've got other stuff to do..."

    Yes, they're innocent and I do not want them to be killed. I don't want innocent people to suffer at all - But you have to understand that these sickos shield themselves with innocent citizens because they KNOW we'll go to any length to spare innocent lives.

    I don't know what the right answer is to any of this is either, I'm just trying to look at the issue from all angles.
    Last edit by NurseStudentFall01 on Sep 21, '01
  10. by   nurs4kids
    hmmmmmmm..so we should just kill all children, so we can assure they don't grow up to become killers?

    interesting perspective, shy

    come on people..THE AFGHAN PHEASANTS HAVE BEEN FIGHTING THE TALIBAN FOR YEARS..

    you can't win a war when you starving and broke...

    so I guess effort isn't enough. They deserve to die even if they are already broken down, eh?

    I have come to the conclusion we HAVE to go in and attack the terrorist, the taliban even. BUT, I have not nor will I ever resolve to peace over the killing of innocent, even weak, citizens. I hope and pray our government will be very selective in who and where they attack. These people do not deserve to be punished/killed for crimes they have no controll over!
  11. by   donmurray
    Many Boston residents over the years have openly raised funds for the IRA, with the local police and politicians turning a blind eye, when not actively supporting these activities. Would that make the UK bombing Boston, or targeting Irish-Americans ok? I think not, though that is what seems to be the preferred option for some on this board regarding your average Afghani peasant.
    They are victims already, of the Russians, then the Taliban, and now we are about to do it to them again. They have no say in the government of their country, far less in the perverted form of Islam imposed on them. At least the Bostonians had a choice!
    Fergus51 puts it more eloquently than I when she talks of those with means. The suicide terrorists all came from comfortably off middle eastern families, with no obvious motivation for what they did. Their only connection to Afghanistan appears to be that some of them trained there, and Ben Laden lives there.
  12. by   MollyJ
    I am uncomfortable with the relative facelessness of our enemy, also. A private citizen with no (???) governmental affiliation. Is he truly or only affiliated with the Taliban?

    Bin Laden uses people rather shamelessly and I think that the Afghanistanis are just more pawns. What the Taliban does next will be telling. Will they say, "Jeez, we just told him to go and now we can't find him? really sorry?" Is this some kind of middle eastern check, check mate piece of humor?

    To respond NOT AT ALL, I think, is dangerous, of course. That would say, "Americans and the world at large are helpless in the face of terrorism." To respond wrong (a bloody, bombing war on Afghanistan to which Bin Laden "digs in" and lets the Afghanistani's take the hits AND watches and fans the flames of Middle Eastern VS Western hatred) will be counter-productive and worsen the world community situation.

    Who is our enemy?

    Enemy #1, at one level, is hatred. More tangibly, it is Bin Laden but who else?

    How to organize a response against a shadowy or faceless enemy without creating unnecessary enemies.

    Very unsettling.
  13. by   Dplear
    Killing the Afghan citizens moral?...I say when the towers were bombed, morality went out the door. We are now in a war for survival, lest you be thinking I am joking. The aim of the fundamentalists are to eradicate the westren way of life and those that practice it. i am not calling for an eradication of Islam, but rather for the erdaication of fanatical fundamentalism. as for the Afghan citizens, there is an oppisition to the taliban andlet them join the Northern Alliance. if they are so concerned with over throwing the government, a group of 2.5 million should be able to overthrow a group of only 50,000. let them join that oppisition. otherwise it is the same as giving the taliban carte blanche and supporting them. So do not hand me that the poor peasant bull...Guns and missles are plentiful overthere and free to cheap...all it takes is the will and it can be done.

    The enemy of my enemy is my friend...the friend of my enemy is my enemy
  14. by   kimtab
    Morality went out the door? Maybe if you didn't have much to start with. You can't be serious.

    It isn't morality that went out the door. It is the rights of those who planned and participated in this horror that are forfeit. But the rights of those who did not remain INTACT and it is WRONG to kill what will undoubtably be thousands of innocent persons in Afghanistan to capture one man.

    Maybe if they eat enough grass they can work up the energy to get that revolution going.

close