War on terrorism, or State murder?

  1. News

    Mid East braced for bloody backlash

    The Middle East was facing renewed bloodshed as Israel vowed to continue to target terror amid growing fears of a violent backlash following the assassination of the spiritual head of the Palestinian group Hamas.

    Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, who was accused by Jerusalem of being behind the campaign of suicide bomb attacks against Israeli targets, was killed by missiles from a helicopter gunship as he left a mosque in Gaza at daybreak yesterday.

    Tens of thousands of mourners - many bearing the green banner of Hamas - took to the streets of Gaza City for the funeral procession of the wheelchair-bound cleric who was revered throughout the West Bank and Gaza.

    [ Copyright 2004, Press Association]
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  2. 29 Comments

  3. by   fergus51
    I don't feel a lot of sympathy for this man. We are talking about someone who encourages suicide bombings to kill civilians. If we aren't allowed to target him, then we shouldn't be allowed to target Bin Laden, and I am sure you can guess how I feel about that notion.

    Honestly, I think Israel screws up royally a LOT and deserves a lot of criticism sometimes, but I don't think this is an example.
  4. by   NurseHardee
    Two hundred thousand Palestinians went to his funeral, Fergus. Obviously, he represents something more than just a murderer to the people most oppressed by Israel and their US supported state terrorism.
  5. by   fergus51
    Popularity does not equal innocence or morality or denote some sort of immunity from retribution for terrorism. A lot of people LOVE Bin Laden, but I don't think that means the US would be wrong if it killed him (though I know already that you feel differently on the matter).

    I don't really care what he represents to anyone. If your organization purposefully targets civilians in terrorist bombings, whether your underlying cause is just or not, you make yourself a legitimate target of your enemies. The title of the thread asked if this was just a murder. I would say that every country in the world has the right to defend its citizens from those who would kill them. Do you think Britain would say "well, you did murder a bunch of our citizens, but why don't you come over for tea and we'll talk about it like chums. I mean really, it was our fault, we're sorry"? Please. Even a left-leaning-quasi-pinko-UN-loving-often-Israel-criticising Canadian like me can see how ridiculous that is.

    He made a choice in his life and this was the consequence. You don't go to war and then say it isn't fair when you lose.
    Last edit by fergus51 on Mar 23, '04
  6. by   nekhismom
    Quote from fergus51
    He made a choice in his life and this was the consequence. You don't go to war and then say it isn't fair when you lose.
    Ditto, ditto, ditto!!!
  7. by   NurseHardee
    It doesn't occur to you both, that this act of US/ Israeli terrorism against the leader of Hamas was the official US response to the Madrid bombings? Do you feel more secure yet? I don't.

    My point being, that injustice and terrorism breeds more and more of the same, Fergus. Israel and the US have carried out plenty of deliberate murders of innocent civilians, including children. It's time to stop.

    Nurse Hardee
  8. by   fergus51
    I get that, but you're talking apples and oranges. Are a lot of Israeli policies wrong? Yes. Are a lot of American policies wrong? Yes. Is the killing of a terrorist murder? No. his hands are as dirty as the Israeli governments or the American government. I don't think "we're oppressed" means "we can kill civilians at pizza joints or on buses at will and expect no retribution". You bomb civilians or military personell of a country and you'd have to be a complete moron to think you are untouchable or that it's morally wrong to target you. If you think a country has no right to target those who murder their citizens, you are waaaaaaaaaaayyyyy out there compared to me.

    I swear, I complain about American and Israeli policies, but let's be honest about it, the Arabs have had a hand in creating their reality and they could improve it if they wanted to instead of complaining, blowing people up, screaming about the destruction of Israel and the Jews and blaming everything on America.
  9. by   Alnamvet
    Quote from NurseHardee
    It doesn't occur to you both, that this act of US/ Israeli terrorism against the leader of Hamas was the official US response to the Madrid bombings? Do you feel more secure yet? I don't.
    I don't feel safe either...I say we and Israel step up the precise surgical removal (assasination) of all terrorist leaders, the heads of state who harbor these animals, and the families who support their son's and daughters decision to kill innocent civilians in the name of allah.
  10. by   BeachNurse
    Hello?? Israel as an oppressor?? Where do you get your information??? So I take it you agree with Palestinian suicide bombings of innocent civilians?? When, show me when, Israel has EVER TARGETED innocent civilians by way of sucide bombings of nightclubs, restaurants, or market places? Hamas and other Palestinians have nothing but hatred and murderous intent toward the people of Israel and want nothing more than to destroy them all and to take over their homeland. I suppose the Israelis should lie back and allow themselves to be killed off while the terrorist run free..? I admire them for taking action..they are simply responding--NOT BY KILLING INNOCENT CIVILIANS, but by going after THOSE RESPONSIBLE.
    Last edit by BeachNurse on Mar 24, '04
  11. by   fergus51
    Whether they intentionally target them or not, you can't really argue that Israel hasn't killed a lot of civilians.
  12. by   pickledpepperRN
    http://www.democracynow.org/article....=thread&tid=25

    NASEER ARURI: ... I'm not a defender of the Palestinian leadership, I'm a critic of it in my writings and so on...
    ...After all, there is something called state terrorism, which even the Israeli press talks about it. Around Israel as a state has been committing it in fact just the other day, two days ago. they did it in Ramallah, killing an 8-year-old boy.

    70 Palestinian civilians have been killed since the last suicide bombing...

    http://www.democracynow.org/article....=thread&tid=25

    Up to 14 Palestinians were killed yesterday following what the Israeli newspaper Haaretz described as an unprecedented wave of Israeli attacks on Gaza...
    . In the deadliest attack, helicopters fired missiles at a car owned by a senior member of Hamas inside the Nusseirat refugee camp. The initial attack is said to have killed the car's four passengers.
    Haaretz reports that dozens of Palestinians including medical workers rushed to the burning vehicle.

    Then two more missiles were fired killed five civilians including a doctor.
    Some 50 people were injured in that attack alone. Haaretz reported a total of 14 Palestinians were killed on Monday...

    http://www.democracynow.org/article....=thread&tid=56
    In Jerusalem, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz yesterday decided to ignore any cease-fire. A government source told Ha?aretz Sharon's government is not interested in anything other than the complete dismantling of the Palestinian armed resistance.

    Just hours after word of the ceasefire was leaked, the Israeli military went on the attack. Helicopters fired missiles at a car near the Gaza Strip town of Khan Younis. The army said it was targeting a Hamas member. Palestinian officials say two innocent people were killed instead, including a 20-year-old woman.

    http://www.democracynow.org/article....=thread&tid=12
    Thursday, April 3rd, 2003
    Send in Giant, Armored Bulldozers, Israeli Military Advises U.S. Troops Poised to Invade Baghdad: But When Confronted By Peace Activist, Retired Israeli General Admits Israeli Troops Make "Many Mistakes," and Calls for Withdrawal From Occupied Territory...

    The Guardian of London reports US forces may try to learn from Israeli tactics when they launch the largest US attack on an urban area in decades. Pentagon strategists have poured over video of the Israeli military assault on Jenin a year ago. Estimates of Palestinians killed in the raid range from 52 up to several hundred. Of the confirmed Palestinian dead, over half of them were civilians. 23 Israeli soldiers were also killed.
  13. by   NurseHardee
    I have called this a 'dirty war' before, where both sides engage in acts of terrorism and mayhem. It is a very sad situation, fergus, no doubt about it. Contrary to many, I don't think that the Israel/ Palestinain divide is the main problem. Though it is the most prominent problem in the news, and involving religious fervor, it definitely will be a hard portion of the over all problem to settle down and resolve.

    I do believe though, that the root cause of the ME problems is the actual theft of oil there by the industrialized countries who sign sweet heart deals with dictatorships and help them stay in power. This is where the US comes in, plop dang in the center of the whole mess. The US took over from the French and British post WW2, and we now run the entire ME through our military dominance.

    Our presence there, as we take and use this most important natural resource, oil, is what ultimately throws gasoline on the entire volatility of the region. Our corporations have advanced our entire economies over the last century or so, entirely based on importation of ME oil at discount rates. And they have left the ME region strewn in poverty, ruins, and chaos.

    I don't see the fighting there in moral or immoral terms so much as others always like to. I simply see it in terms of the indigenous people of the region trying to resist outsider domination of their affairs. They are in a war setting, and it has been that way for over a century now. One can say that it began even when the Ottoman Empire was still running the show. The people have a right to resist Europeans from coming in and trying to loot their natural resources and land.

    I just get sick of all this pretentious c..p about democracy and what not. Israel and the US act like mafioso gangs, using torture and assassination ad lib to maintain their dominance. It's not for me as an American to lay down a book of good manners for the conduct of people that have to endure this stuff day in, and day out.

    Nurse Hardee
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Quote from fergus51
    I get that, but you're talking apples and oranges. Are a lot of Israeli policies wrong? Yes. Are a lot of American policies wrong? Yes. Is the killing of a terrorist murder? No. his hands are as dirty as the Israeli governments or the American government. I don't think "we're oppressed" means "we can kill civilians at pizza joints or on buses at will and expect no retribution". You bomb civilians or military personell of a country and you'd have to be a complete moron to think you are untouchable or that it's morally wrong to target you. If you think a country has no right to target those who murder their citizens, you are waaaaaaaaaaayyyyy out there compared to me.

    I swear, I complain about American and Israeli policies, but let's be honest about it, the Arabs have had a hand in creating their reality and they could improve it if they wanted to instead of complaining, blowing people up, screaming about the destruction of Israel and the Jews and blaming everything on America.
  14. by   fergus51
    The danger in saying you shouldn't judge is that no one ever will.

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