Thought provoking email CONTINUED

  1. Because I can't get anything to post to the original thread!!!!

    I took my ENTIRE lunchtime to write this posting... then I couldn't make it post. At least I had the presence of mind to cut and paste so I could try again at home. I couldn't post anything last night or again this morning, so I'm starting a new one. (I can post to other threads, I just tried.)

    I've got some thoughts on things that Renee and Sundowner have written.

    Renee, you talk about attending church by mentioning the church building, which I'm sure that you do in order to make a point about your faith that is outside of that particular church. But it's difficult for people who do attend church to hear that. For one thing, a church is NOT confined to the walls of the building. If it is, it's pretty pathetic to begin with. I know that's not what you were saying, but most people in churches will tell you that the church *is not* the building. It's the people.

    People who say they don't go to church because the hypocrites go to church are just spouting something that sounds self-righteous and self-serving and perhaps even hypocritical to me. They don't want to go to church, and rather than say, I don't like it, they come up with the hypocrites go there line.

    Hypocrites go to Krogers, too. If someone found a church where the hypocricy of the people there was offensive to him, then maybe he should have tried another church before deciding that all churches are beneath them. Or at least be honest about why they don't want to go. Perfectly reasoable people decline to attend church without insulting people who do.

    As far as church attendance goes, I'm with you. I don't think anything important is contingent on going. I'm Catholic, and I love the liturgy. But I don't feel like I'm jeopardizing my soul if I don't go - even on Holy Days of Obligation.

    A friend who is a minister told me a really cool parable about going to church. It's set in Scotland. This old guy had been going to church regularly and then just quit. His wife and kids kept going, but the hubby never showed up. The wife missed him going with her, but he wanted to sleep in and have the house to himself for a couple of hours.

    The minister went to visit him, and they had a friendly discussion about whether it was necessary to go to church. The minister agreed that it wasn't *Necessary,* but told him he wanted to make a point. There was a coal fire going in the fireplace. The minister took the shovel and took one coal ember out of the fire. The coal sat there on the hearth for a few minutes and the two men watched it quickly cool down. As it lost its glow entirely, the minister shoveled it back with the other coals.... Where it heated up and started glowing again.

    I think that explains more about people who feel good and feel the necessity to go to church.

    You said that you didn't think any churches were mentioned in the Bible, only synogogues. I'm not even sure about that - I know they mention temples... But as far as Christian churches, Obviously there weren't any for Jesus to go to! He does say to St. Paul "on this rock I will build My Church." and there are letters from the apostles to churches. Which of course didn't have buildings, but were just little groups of people who met in people's houses and the like.

    Sundowner, you wrote about some more stuff that's near and dear to my heart, too! Innocent children. Wow - what a concept, huh? I think that if you spend any amount of time around children, you will decide that children are completely human without the protective shell and pretty mask that we learn to put on as we age.

    Kids are completely and 100% self-absorbed. Anything they see is theirs. Anybody in their way gets knocked over. In an adult, we'd have to say that that's a pretty nasty way to be. But kids don't have any SENSE of right and wrong. They don't have any *shame* in the things that they do. And I think that it's that knowledge of right and wrong (good and evil) that the creation story talks about.

    Now I've got BIG problems with the creation story and the concept of original sin. If you were a parent, would you put your beloved children into a wondeful, beautiful, nurturing place, **with one dangerous and attractive plant?** I don't think so. If that's the way it was set up, then we were set up to fail from Day 1.

    If "Adam and Eve" didn't have the knowledge of good and evil (which they got from eating that fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) then I don't see how God could expect them to do what he told them to do. They don't get the tools to judge right from wrong until they've already done wrong??? Like little kids - they have to learn to mind. I see it as a big design flaw.

    All societies, religions, etc., have the rules about don't kill, don't steal, don't cheat.... It's built into the grand design of things, I think. Here's my handle on it: I used to be a programmer, computer system manager. People who used my programs saw my hand in them. You see? They would know if they were using a program that Dennie wrote for them as opposed to one that we bought.

    So if you believe that there is a Designer who made all this, then you have to accept that the underlying rules were written in by the Designer. So yes, those rules (with that assumption) did come from God. If you don't believe in the Designer, then the rules are all arbitrary. If you don't believe in a Designer, then life is actually a matter of opinion (Douglas Adams - who very strongly did not believe).

    Gravity - it's a law, not just a suggestion.

  2. 219 Comments

  3. by   live4today
    Clarifications for Nurse Dennie:

    Thanks for your comments regarding what you "perceived" that I meant, but for clarification sake, I do not attend a 'church building' just "to make a point about my faith outside that church". I attend a church building on a regular basis because being around other people who believe in the same God that I do warms my soul, gives me encouragement in my faith, and helps me to grow as a believer. I NEVER discuss my beliefs regarding how I feel about the many different denominations that exist with anyone in the churches I go to UNLESS they ask, or the discussion first presents itself (and not by me).

    I can only speak for "why" I go to a churchbuilding for group worship once a week. BTW, I'm not even picky about WHICH denominational church I visit or attend on a weekly basis as long as the people's beliefs aren't "foreign" to the way I believe in God.

    I, in no way, can speak for other people and the reasons they attend a church setting. Some people I have gone to church with in various parts of our country have told me they go to church because (1) they were raised in the church and they enjoy the fellowship they receive there), or (2) they go to church because they think that is what 'saves' them, etc.

    People who comment about churchgoers being "hypocrites" speak so out of lack of knowledge about God, lack of belief in God, exposure to someone who goes to church faithfully BUT lives their life opposite from the way they think "church people" should act, etc. CHRISTIANS AREN'T PERFECT, JUST SAVED BY THE GRACE OF ALMIGHTY GOD, EVEN WHILE THEY ARE SINNERS. Many anti-churchgoers or agnostics are confused by the doublestandards in which many who confess to be believers live their lives. Wouldn't you be if you didn't know that God came to save the sin sick souls of the world and not those who think they've already "arrived".

    As for the mention of various churches in the Holy Bible: Synagogues are often synonymous with the Temples, both mean "a gathering place, sanctuary, sacred place". Temple also means "house, family, tribe; palace". [I checked this out with four sources before printing it here by using my Bible, my Strong's Dictionary Concordance of Bible Word meanings, my "A to Z -- Where To Find It In The Bible Resource Book", and Webster's Dictionary. ]

    A "Bible Scholar", I'm NOT! But, I do know where to educate myself on things I don't know, so I went to the four sources mentioned above.

    NonJewish believers were eventually "adopted" as God's children, for which I am eternally grateful! We, being adopted sons and daughters of God, receive the same inheritance of our Jewish brothers and sisters. Praise God for this!

    In the New Testament section of the Bible, Paul's letters mention various churches (congregational meetings with groups of people of like mind): The Church of Corinth, The Church of Ephesus, The Church of Thessalonica, Philippians, Galations, and so on). I did a little reading on the history of these churches, and many were started by people who heard Jesus and Paul preach in the Temples and Synagogues; many of those people came to believe in Jesus as The Christ and continued to "meet in gathering places" forming their own church. [keep in mind that Paul and Jesus preached in many different cities and towns, etc., thus giving the reasons for how those churches were named.] You know how one thing leads to another and before you know it...boom...we have a bazillion different "gathering places" today known as all the various church denominations. ALL serving the same God, but not all believing in the same manner of worship or how we each can come to be saved, etc. THUS, today in 2002, we have a slew of different manmade religious denominations dividing themselves from the ONE TRUE PURPOSE of serving ONE GOD.... "BEING IN LIKE MIND WITH OUR HEAVENLY FATHER".

    NurseDennie, it is the "BEING IN LIKE MIND" theory that tends to trip us all up with all these different denominational church bodies, not so much on WHO it is we desire to SERVE AND LOVE.
    Last edit by live4today on Feb 9, '02
  4. by   radnurse2001
    if you want to go to church fine, if you don't, fine. I still believe its how you live that counts
  5. by   donmurray
    Right on, Radnurse! It is perfectly possible to live a full and meaningful life without recourse to the supernatural. Religious beliefs may be pivotal for some, their faith, and the diversity of their beliefs must not only be tolerated, but respected. One expects this attitude to be reciprocated towards those who hold secularist views, but this is not always the case.
  6. by   micro
    Originally posted by donmurray
    Right on, Radnurse! It is perfectly possible to live a full and meaningful life without recourse to the supernatural. Religious beliefs may be pivotal for some, their faith, and the diversity of their beliefs must not only be tolerated, but respected. One expects this attitude to be reciprocated towards those who hold secularist views, but this is not always the case.

    I agree Rad nurse, good to see you!!!!!!!!! If you want to go to church okay, and if you don't go to church okay.....I still say it is how you live that counts!!!!!

    I tried to post my thoughts a few nights ago, but a "DEMON" must have got to it and it disappeared before I hit the submit button............:roll :roll :imbar you gotta know micro to get this.........:chuckle

    So here is my try again.........

    thx Nurse Dennie for finding how to continue this thread.........


    Now to my point that I want to make and hope I can succinctly, yet not to succinctly that it is not gotten.............

    A good majority of this world's population is born and raised in areas of belief that believe in a divine being!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Of these beliefs, a good majority of them do believe in the ONE GOD,
    his Son and the Trinity of God!!!!!!!!!

    But there are also many that just by geography are born into the same strength of believing in other Gods and ways of life......not evil, just different.......

    If you have been around this world long or micro's posts long.......remember the Tower of Babel.............?????????

    Before I go on, I do proclaim here that I do strongly believe in good and evil!!!!!!!!!!! There are forces beyond our imagination and we needn't tempt them.......because as soon as good exists then evil exists and I feel that any world religion will agree with that...........

    NOW THAT SAID, micro's simple but "comical take on world religions." .................................................. .................................................. .......

    I, micro, was born in the USA, midwest, a last child of a good family that believed definitively in the One True God. Raised very traditionally and yes, even a PK!!!!!!!!!!! Even though many ??????? have always maintained a baseline belief in God and his Son.................

    now, next just for conjecture...........

    I, micro, was born in Uganda............raised to believe in Voodoo.......I know is misunderstood by the World, you think of us as evil, but we are not........all beliefs have their evil and good sides...............Voodoo is an ancient religion that celebrates life and the mysteries of death.............Wish more people understood this.....

    I, micro was born in the Bronx, USA.........don't know why'a but well you know my family is Catholic and well, I believe that way also............and you know what........Catholics are good people, so why do we get the bad rap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I, micro well I am an X-genner.........well my parents, yes they are together, but well you know they say higher power and all that but I just don't get what does that make me.......?????????????an agnostic?????????????????

    I, micro was born in India.........My god I believe in is Vishnu! Most people think I am "frail of mind" to even believe in Vishnu with my country being so poor.......but I do, and will not stray!!!!!

    I, micro was born in the middle East and I believe in Allah!!!!! This is a scary thing to say today day and age.........and I in no way back fanatics of any kind.......but the Koran and Allah teaches the good path and life...........

    I, micro was raised rather privately and so that the outside world wouldn't notice, because they wouldn't understand.........but my family is from a long line of witches!!!!!!!!! Today we belong to WICCA, and we are proud of this......... Witches do not mean evil........... There is good and evil in all and we practice good!!!!!

    I, micro was raised to maybe believe and maybe not believe in god or gods, and to tell you the truth today well I don't know if I believe in anything that I can't see????????? what does this make atheist................well, so be it.......that does not make me a bad person.......I believe and practices in the golden rule!!!!!!!!!!!

    I, micro was raised in Judaism...........I am a staunch Jew.............I get much hatred and prejudice and misunderstanding about my beliefs this day, but still believe.................We still believe that Jesus was and is one of the MOST important prophets of time!!!!!!!

    please forgive old country micro for trying to make a point that could have certainly been made by someone more literate and knowledgeable than I.
    I know I have left a good ##### of world religions out in my poor attempt of a dissertion......and those religions are probably glad for this.........but on the other hand.......I did not in any way mean to slight anyone.....................just due to my ignorance and also to the fact that we, as humans are so vast and widespread in our belief systems.........that to put in one page what we believe.....would almost be impossible, well yes, impossible...............


    this is not a call to soul-saving........'cause I have heard those and even believed in those.....................this is another thought process..........
    DO YOU NOT THINK THAT GOD(WHOEVER/WHATEVER THAT MIGHT BE), could handle if his/her/its followers called him/her/it by another name..............??????????? just a ?????

    Because someone is born in Nigeria, doesn't mean that I fear for their means that they are yet but another traveler in this thing called life and a POWER FAR GREATER THAN I IS PRESENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    This is not a stab at people trying to do good by GOD's WORD!!!!! but don't you think that GOD can take people calling HIM(okay, I will give up my annoying he/she/it), and just celebrate that HIS(his/hers/its) people know to do what is right(meaning GOOD, not evil)

    as you all know by now,
    this is only micro,
    so just here ventilating and verbalizing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  7. by   nana kathy
    Oh powerful psychic one, if I send you my ??????'s and $$$$$, will you grant me a world where I can be as wise as the one and only "MICRO"??? LOL

    I want to know, with all the different *life* adventures you have had, how can you know who you are??

    Now for the 'heavy" side, I believe that the building does not "make" a church. A church can be at the edge of your porch when you watch a glorious sunrise or sunset. A church can be holding hands and comforting a sick soul, spiritual or physical.

    A true church is a group of believers or a believer, being in touch with their God. Only God, (love the he/she/it) knows what is in each and every heart. Many worship, Many follow, Many pretend.

    OK Wise One - am I going to post or get bleeped off this site??
  8. by   micro
    Originally posted by nana kathy
    Oh powerful psychic one, if I send you my ??????'s and $$$$$, will you grant me a world where I can be as wise as the one and only "MICRO"??? LOL
    I want to know, with all the different *life* adventures you have had, how can you know who you are??
    Now for the 'heavy" side, I believe that the building does not "make" a church. A church can be at the edge of your porch when you watch a glorious sunrise or sunset. A church can be holding hands and comforting a sick soul, spiritual or physical.
    A true church is a group of believers or a believer, being in touch with their God. Only God, (love the he/she/it) knows what is in each and every heart. Many worship, Many follow, Many pretend.
    OK Wise One - am I going to post or get bleeped off this site??
    hehehehehehehehehe, thx nana first endorsement..............

    yes to you I give free psychic services.......some one and all to psychic micro bring your ????? and your $$$$$$$$$

    :stone :stone :stone Now to the serious question of all my life experiences.......I could only list a few........but hoped to make point............How do I know who I am................I am what I am (original quote taken from Popeye the sailor man) :imbar :imbar :roll

    Now to the light side of your is what it is for that person..........yes a bldg, that stands for something, and also a meeting can be in your own house......
    church can be two people just being nice to each can be someone seeing the moon or sun and contemplating.......

    As is one of my PK with wonderful, wonderful but very traditional baptist family church can be a center point of your life and daily activities.

    Today I truly admire my family and love and mom.........great folk and wish to be more like them.......
    other family majority are church goers and good folk.....I so admire them and hold dear and respect my siblings and their families........

    I, rebel micro however do not attend church.....(even though I have tried in my adult life-----variety).......maybe some no soul savin needed here......... but I have just started to in my fifth decade to come to understand spirituality instead of religion.........

    I have great respect for my religion of origin and I have also developed great respect for people and people's belief systems, including; religion.

    Micro will now try to post if that will let me!!!!!!!!! tehehehehehehehehehe!!!!!!!!!
  9. by   NurseDennie

    I was told that, since I'd started this thread, I could delete it. Which would end the confusion.

    But I can't - it says I'm not authorized. Oh my.


  10. by   pkmom
    a building is just a building, the church is the family, the people. I have heard of church families meeting in old bars, I know of one who meets in a former strip club. I know from experience that getting involved in a church family will change your life for the better. It's one thing to go to church, but sometimes I think if all you're going to do is go and be a pew warmer, stay home and save the space for someone who can be reached. taking up space and adding a number to the weekly totals won't change you, being involved and actively serving people makes a difference. Hubby's youth group has grown a lot because he doesn't just cater to the teenagers needs, he shows them that there are things outside of themselves that are more important. These kids love to go and feed the homeless. After we were married, we had a hard time choosing a church, so we went back and forth between two or three but never really got involved. I must tell you that is not healthy for your soul, it wore me down. Since we moved here, I have been more involved and I have grown so much, so much more than I thought a church could help me grow. I am so glad that God brought us to this church. There are very real people here, people who don't hide their struggles but share them and pray over them and encourage each other. I've not heard a word of gossip either. I'm not saying we are a perfect group, but we have a lot of things going for us.

    why do you think that denominations are deviding themselves from the one purpose of serving God? One church supports mexico missions, one supports local needs. one has a contemporary service, one has the congregation singing hymns, one doesn't let the congregation sing at all. how is that dividing us from the one purpose of serving God? Maybe I have a different slant on things because I've never been a part of a large denomination, is there some secret rivalry going on! People have a lot of different thoughts on things...does the Spirit come before or after baptism, baptise baby's or adults, is there a heaven and hell, when will Christ return, are we in the tribulation now etc. People may have different views on all these things, but if they carry the name Christian, then they believe in God, the son, the Spirit and the opportunity of all for the salvation from sins. they all agree on the essentials. Paul talked about this says I follow paul, another says I follow Peter (or whatever). Paul said to follow my example as I follow Christ. As long as we don't teach John Doe over Christ then we are teaching the same thing.

    Hey Dennie, what are the holy days of obligation? is that like Christmas and Easter? That's when attendence is usually up in my neighborhood!

    loved the coal analogy, I think its fits perfectly!

    In my post last week that was erased by the software demon, I agreed with you on kids, they are so selfish and everything is theirs. I don't think the Garden was an issue of being ignorant of good or evil it was an issue of obedience. God told them all this other stuff, they didn't know anything, He told them how to live. ( I wonder if he told them how to multiply!) did he have to tell them not to eat dirt or feces? It doesn't say, but my guess is that he did. ( I think of the movie George of the Jungle, he was an adult, but all of a sudden, everything was foreign to him and he had to be educated about all kinds of things that the rest of the characters think commonplace.) They had no experience and no previous knowledge, they didn't know anything unless God told them and he told them not to eat the fruit of tree X. But alas, they did and from that disobedience sprang evil in man.

    That's it for now, wanted to let everyone know that I'm not ignoring you and I haven't forgotten you, think about you all everyday, but my goodness, life got really crazy all of a sudden. The baby started taking shorter naps which means I can't get as much stuff done. I went two weeks without mopping my kitchen floor, which before baby was not a big deal, but we had applesauce and mystery juice covering my white tile floor and there might be something growing in that back corner! Well, its dead now!

    I'm enjoying the conversation
    I"m going to try to copy my posts onto my clipboard so if it doesn't post, I can just paste it later. Hope it works.
  11. by   nana kathy
    Beautiful post, PK MOM, good to hear you are not forgetting us.
    Short naps are a pain in the butt and REALLY hard on housework, but look at all the special moments you get to share with your Babe now that you can gaze into their eyes and watch them grow. (Tell everyone your white floor needed remodeled and you chose tie-paint. LOL) The crawley things, well, just name them and show-off your new *pets*....
    Had a compatable story about *finding* a new religion through God. Long story, but to put it in a nutshell: I thought God had turned away from me because of having a child out of wed-lock in the 70's, when it was UNHEARD of (according to one pastor and one congregation). For the next 14 or so years, I prayed when I needed help, but took a hard fall in life to see I had turned from God and He never turned from me.
    I SO MUCH agree with your last post 150%..
    Take care of that little one, they grow MUCH too fast.....
    Someday, may you stare in amazement, as I do now, at the little finger prints and smears the next generation makes and Thank God life goes on.........
  12. by   micro
    just old micro chirpin in.
    has taken off psychic hat for moment and tongue doesn't even feel warmed up to do tongue in cheek,
    hey all, let's keep discussion rollin, laughin, cryin and politely disagreein'
    nurse Dennie, oh well now there are two thought provoking emails.........
    whoops, starting to be psychic again,
  13. by   pkmom
    Nana, my house is 7 months old, its a little too soon to be remodelling! Anyone who comes over will understand or leave! "pets" lol, they are the only ones he isn't allergic too.

    my kiddo has been drinking from a cup for a long time, perhaps a year. I still find it amazing to watch him drink from his cup, some might see that as silly. Now he knows which doors are supposed to be closed and he helps me keep them closed, unless its the pantry, and I just watch in amazement.

    I love my son more than I thought it was possible to love. Perhaps this is another thread, but we have hit so many topics here, but does it bother anyone else to see the society's view of children? On TV they are portrayed as a problem, a hindrence, an obstacle to be overcome, or kicked out. I wish I saw more examples in the media etc that showed the huge blessing that children are to their parents. My old roomie got pregnant and of course told her family first then started calling friends. I was the first person to tell her congratulations. her family just sighed, like, well it had to happen sometime. people who complain about their kids all the time irritate me because they are missing such wonderful experiences because they are busy doing stuff that doesn't matter. I believe God put me here to be a great mother, I feel that is my primary ministry for this part of my life. I probably won't make a big difference in this world, or even in the lives of a few, but my children can and I plan on equipping them with everything they need to do it. So believe me when I say I enjoy every moment of motherhood. I remember trying to study for A&P and the baby was in his exersaucer just jumping away and having a grand ol' time. I was supposed to be studying, I put him in the saucer so I could study, but all I could do was watch him; he was so happy. I had to restrict my studying to his sleeping hours.

    amazing, I believe God never turns on us, he's always standing there with arms wide opened. that's what sets christianity apart from all the other religions, its the only one where God sacrificed his son for the sinners to reconcile them to Himself.
  14. by   pebbles
    Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to a garage makes you a mechanic