Profiling or Security? Take yer pick

  1. To ensure we Americans never offend anyone - - - - particularly fanatics
    intent on killing us - airport screeners will not be allowed to profile
    people. They will continue random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids,
    airline pilots with proper identification, Secret Service agents who are
    members of the President's security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with
    metal hips, and Medal Of Honor winning former Governors.

    Let's pause a moment and take the following test. In 1972 at the Munich
    Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by:
    (a) Olga Corbutt
    (b) Sitting Bull
    (c) Arnold Schwartzeneger
    (d) Male Middle Eastern Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    In 1979,the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
    (a) Lost Norwegians
    (b) Elvis
    (c) A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
    (d) Male Middle Eastern Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
    (a) John Dillinger
    (b) The King of Sweden
    (c) The Boy Scouts
    (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
    (a) A pizza delivery boy
    (b) Pee Wee Herman
    (c) Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day
    (d) Male Middle Eastern Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and
    40.

    In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked, and a 70 year old
    American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard by:
    (a) The Smurfs
    (b) Davy Jones
    (c) The Little Mermaid
    (d) Male Middle Eastern Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and
    40.

    In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver was
    murdered by:
    (a) Captain Kid
    (b) Charles Lindberg
    (c) Mother Teresa
    (d) Male Middle Eastern Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and
    40.

    In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
    (a) Scooby Doo
    (b) The Tooth Fairy
    (c) Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid who had a few sticks of dynamite left
    over from the train job.
    (d) Male Middle Eastern Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and
    40.

    In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
    (a) Richard Simmons
    (b) Grandma Moses
    (c) Michael Jordan
    (d) Male Middle Eastern Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and
    40.

    In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
    (a) Mr. Rogers
    (b) Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems
    (c) The World Wrestling Federation to promote its next villain: "Mustapha the
    Merciless" (d) Male Middle Eastern Muslim extremists mostly between the ages
    of 17 and 40.

    On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed and thousands of
    people were killed by:
    (a) Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck, and Elmer Fudd
    (b) The Supreme Court of Florida
    (c) Mr. Bean
    (d) Male Middle Eastern Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and
    40.

    In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
    (a) Enron
    (b) The Lutheran Church
    (c) The NFL
    (d) Male Middle Eastern Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and
    40.

    In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
    (a) Bonny and Clyde
    (b) Captain Kangaroo
    (c) Billy Graham
    (d) Male Middle Eastern Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and
    40.

    > Hmmm . . . nope, no patterns here to justify profiling!
    •  
  2. 45 Comments

  3. by   fergus51
    Obviously Middle Easterners are going to be targeted even if they say they aren't profiling. The only problem with that is that not all Middle Easterners are muslim extremists (a lot are christians) and not all extremists are Middle Easterners (think John Walker) and a lot of people who look like Middle Eastern extremists are actually Indian Sihks and so on and so on.... The only thing you can really tell from looking at them is their age and skin colour and gender....
  4. by   Stargazer
    Interesting article today on the effectiveness, or lack thereof, in airport security in general, including various kinds of profiling:

    http://slate.msn.com/?id=2064257
  5. by   Furball
    Nuts. My 2 year old neice was searched, binky and everything. While a middle eastern male behind them wasn't. At least not overtly. Nuts.
  6. by   Ted
    It's interesting how the person who started this thread listed a handfull of terrorist acts from 1972 to 2002 that may have been caused by:

    "(d) Male Middle Eastern Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40".

    Yet, during this time period that have been hundreds if not thousands of "terrorist acts", some big some small, that were caused by people of all races, ages, sex, culture, etc. . .

    I guess I'm looking for suggestions on how we can heal as a nation. Better yet, how we can heal as a world! In my mind, this particular post does nothing more than add fuel to the fire. At the very least, it keeps the buring cinders of hate alive and well.

    It's a pity, actually. Terrorism and war between all cultures, races, and religions have been going on since the beginning of human-kind.

    Again, how about some suggestions on healing and peace?

    Ted
  7. by   Q.
    Ted-
    The post was not "authored" by me; it was sent via email and I found it entertaining, therefore posted it. Sorry to offend you.

    However, the POINT, albeit done with some humor, was on the notion that Furball posted. Her 2 year old was searched??? Come on. I don't think that is doing anything to promote love and peace either.

    I like love and peace too. But I am a realist. And I an intent on surviving and not having me or my family the victim of some car or airplane bombing. It's that simple. I am not the bad guy here.
  8. by   SKM-NURSIEPOOH
    Originally posted by efiebke
    It's interesting how the person who started this thread listed a handfull of terrorist acts from 1972 to 2002 that may have been caused by:

    "(d) Male Middle Eastern Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40".

    Yet, during this time period that have been hundreds if not thousands of "terrorist acts", some big some small, that were caused by people of all races, ages, sex, culture, etc. . .

    I guess I'm looking for suggestions on how we can heal as a nation. Better yet, how we can heal as a world! In my mind, this particular post does nothing more than add fuel to the fire. At the very least, it keeps the buring cinders of hate alive and well.

    It's a pity, actually. Terrorism and war between all cultures, races, and religions have been going on since the beginning of human-kind.

    Again, how about some suggestions on healing and peace?

    Ted
    So many people of various cultures & background have participated in "terrorist acts". Just go back to the last century where in both WWI & WWII, the Germans where the enemy as well as the Italians in WWII. Neither the German or Italian Americans were "profiled"...but doing WWII, Japanese Amercians where hauled-up & put into concentration camps - right here in the good ole USA! No German Americans or Italian Americans for that matter where hauled-up & placed in such camps because it was easier to identify Japanese Americans than it was to identify German Americans...besides, hauling-up German Americans was, for white America at that time, undesirable...it would've been too much like hauling themselves up.

    The other recent horrible terroistic act commetted on the US was done so by a white American...Timothy McVae(sp?). I remember no "profiling" being done towards any other Anglo-Saxon Christians since then.
    fergus51 Obviously Middle Easterners are going to be targeted even if they say they aren't profiling. The only problem with that is that not all Middle Easterners are muslim extremists (a lot are christians) and not all extremists are Middle Easterners (think John Walker) and a lot of people who look like Middle Eastern extremists are actually Indian Sihks and so on and so on.... The only thing you can really tell from looking at them is their age and skin colour and gender....
    Fergus51 makes a valid point in saying that there are various cultures coupled with different religious background living in the Middle East. I will add to that & say that not all Muslims are people of color either...i.e. the Muslims of Bosina in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia are of white descent...would it be so easy to identify them if they weren't wearing their "garb'?...I think not.

    Unfortunately, everyone must be subjected to these searches, even if they're only two years old...sorry Susy & Furball...no one should be subjected to searches as a result of "profiling"
    Susy K Ted- ...the POINT, albeit done with some humor, was on the notion that Furball posted. Her 2 year old was searched??? ...
    How quick we are to forget just how children were used as walking bombs in the Vietnam War or even now in different parts of Africa where children are being terrorized & used in such a manner.

    IMHO, using humor in this manner is...for the lack of a better word...insensative to say the least especially for those "(d) Male Middle Eastern Muslim Extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40" & their families. Terrorists should be judged by their philosophy coupled with terroristic actions & not for their religious beliefs per-say. We all have to look at what is going on with them & why these people are so upset with us Americans...we have to be willing to listen to whatever it is why they think we're against them. Maybe then, we could come up with "suggestions on how we can heal as a nation...or world" as Efiebke so eloquently stated:zzzzz - Moe
    Last edit by SKM-NURSIEPOOH on Apr 12, '02
  9. by   Q.
    Originally posted by SKM-NURSIEPOOH



    IMHO, using humor in this manner is...for the lack of a better word...insensative to say the least especially for those "(d) Male Middle Eastern Muslim Extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40" & their families. Terrorists should be judged by their philosophy coupled with terroristic actions & not for their religious beliefs per-say. Moe
    In an ideal world, that would be the best thing to do. However, how you do propose that we identify those that hold philosophies that are in line with killing off Americans? In a line of people ready to board a plane, how do we determine someone's philosophy, before they go and knife all the Americans on board and the pilot??

    And yes, searching EVERYONE would be nice. EVERYONE. But searching a 2 year old and NOT searching a Middle Eastern descendent for fear of "offending" him isn't right, either, IMHO.
  10. by   cmggriff
    I have a proposal for cheaper more effective airport security. Instead of hiring a lot of convicted felons and retirees to search for guns, knives and explosives, we should simply arm every passenger boarding the planes with hand guns. Then no one would consider starting anything on the flights.

    Gun control: evry round into the center of mass. Gary
  11. by   SKM-NURSIEPOOH
    Originally posted by Susy K
    ...And yes, searching EVERYONE would be nice. EVERYONE. But searching a 2 year old and NOT searching a Middle Eastern descendent for fear of "offending" him isn't right, either, IMHO.
    ...that everyone(that includes infants, children, & the elderly) must be searched in these trying days & time for the examples I'd stated above...i.e.
    ...children were used as walking bombs in the Vietnam War... - Moe
    It's unfortunate that we live in such a dangerous & untrusting world...we all must "LISTEN" to & not just "HEAR" the other person's point of view in order to "UNDERSTAND" what is being "SAID"...only then can we start to communicate in order to solve some of these problems that pleague the world.

    Susy, my previous post was also IMHO & not a personal attack on you...I just wanted you to see the importance where everyone must be search in the air ports & such...we don't know all of the facts & circumstances as to the procedures at that or any other air port which suggest or alleged that this Middle Eastern man wasn't checked while the two year old was...he may have been checked at another point or he may have been under strick surveillance as many are being profiled or he could even have been an US Air Marshal (which would explain the staff not searching him)...in any case, we don't know for sure that he wasn't search so not to "offend" him & to get all rallied-up over something we have no direct proof or knowlege of this one case is a waste of time & energy. You should expect some opposing views regarding the issue of racial profiling as this is sure to be a hot & sore topic for some though!!!

    Now I feel that I really must be honest about just how this thread has made me feel...if my feelings seem extreme or if they infer a sharp point of view, then I must apologize in advance.

    It's easy to point a finger at someone else when it's not our selves being racially profiled...but just let it happen to you or someone dear to you & you'll see what's like to walk into stores & have people watch you on monitors & follow you around until you've made your purchase(s) & leave...or look at you as if you don't belong there at all. You really must walk a mile or two in someone else's shoes to fully understand their plight. I, as a Native/Afro-American female have experienced various kinds of profiling acts against me, my family, & friends. So forgive me because I do take offense on the matter of racial profiling. In the state of New Jersey, Afro-Americans have been profiled on the state's highways for years...& the issue came to a head when a van full of black youths was shot upon, just because they "might be dangerous". They didn't have any weapons what so ever but was fired upon just the same...the case have been in & out of courts now & there have been some changes in the NJ State Troopers' policies & procedures on traffic stops. In another case in New York, an Jamaican desent man was standing in his doorway & was told to put his hands up...unfortunately, he was holding a cell phone at the time & the police officers shoot him 41 times...they killed him like a mad dog because he was black & they were afraid that he "might" of had a gun...& the really sad thing is the fact that those officers had the wrong man...but they were acquited from any wrong doing anyway...if a white man was shot down 41 times like an animal by any black officers, they would've gone to prision, no questions asked...there would be no aquitals for them - that would just never happen...never. In the past, black soldiers were sent over seas to fight the injustices of both WWI & WWII but returned to Jim Crowe laws in the south...the branches of the services wasn't desegregated until 1945, after WWII...before then, only white soldiers were trained & fought side-by-side...everyone else was trained & fought according to their individual race. I've only given you three out of hundreds of examples of these kinds of actions being taken against people of different race/religions down through the years in good ole America. This country has come a long way since then & it still has a long way to go...let's not go backwards by re-installing racial profiling...please.

    So if I sound bitter it is because I am...again, I apologize for it seems that when this thread was started, IMO, it was done so to get people rallied-up against those so called "(d) Male Middle Eastern Muslim Extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40" & their families with no specific point except to poke fun, insteel hate, &/or to rally people behind racial profiling...which really leaves me with a bitter taste in my mouth.

    Racial profiling doesn't belong anywhere in America nor does racism belong anywhere on these BBs either. It was only when Furball spoke about what had happened to her neice is when you, Susy, proclaim your reason for starting this thread...but I didn't see any example of this kind in our original post except for wanting random searches of little kids & 80 year old women to stop & to have racial profiling to start. That's why a few posters have stated that it's wrong to profile based on religion/race...you have to have probable cause to become a suspect, get searched with a warrent issued by a judge, be interviewed with legeal representation for an alleged crime (that's already committed)....random searches in the air ports, bus, & train stations must continue for everyone's safety prior to any crimes being committed.

    You said that the information was presented to you by someone else & that you wanted to share it... but surely you had to have seen where it would be offensive to some...& perhaps that was your intention...I don't know...only you & God know the truth. I find it hard to believe that you would or could be that mean spirited or naive...if you go-on to play the "I didn't know" card would be insulting to say the least...I really hope that your intentions weren't to do this so I suggest before starting any new thread or making any further posts which could be inflammatory or become misunderstood, you should run it by your family memebers (spouse, parents, grandparents, in-laws, or aunts/uncles) & fellow peers (co-workers, friends, classmates, instructors, supervisors, or religious leaders) first...just to get their reactions...JMO & friendly advise - Moe
  12. by   rncountry
    SKM, I just have to say this.
    My great-grandfather was born in Germany, in the area that used to be Prussia. The woman he married, my great-grandmother was the first in her family to be born in this country, having emigrated from the same general area of Germany as my grandfather's people were from. All of their children went to a German language school run by the Luthern church until 8th grade. When WWII broke out the speaking of German both in and outside the home was banned by my grandfather. He did not want people to know he and the family were German, he made a point of telling others that they were American's not Germans. He did this because there was, what he felt, a legitimate fear of a backlash against Germans. No, German's and Italian's were not rounded up the way the Japanese were. It is easy to say that is because German's and Italian's were white, they fit in easier than the Japanese did. I would say only to a certain extent is that true. Neither Germany or Italy actively attacked this country, Japan did. If the government had opted to also place German's and Italian's in camps they could have done so quite easily.
    When I was a kid I wanted my grandfather to teach me to speak German. He flat refused to do so. He was a kind and gentle man, this is the only time I ever was to see him angry. He pointed at me and told me that I was not a German, I was an American and had no business learning German. He told me the Germans had badly embarrassed themselves in the war and never would any of his family ever speak the language of barbarians again. I was quite taken aback by the vemon in his voice, he had never spoke rough to me. At 38 years old I still recall the shock I felt then, and his use of the word barbarians.
    I tell you all this because to illustrate a couple things, at least from my viewpoint. My grandfather felt that the family could not afford to be anything other than an American during the war. Right, wrong or indifferent that was his belief. Later after the war, and finding out the atrocities committed by the German army he did not want his family associated with Germany or any German identity at all. This was such a strong belief that I was never to know where in Germany he was born, only a general region and that from a cousin that did lots of digging into family roots. What questions I asked about family background into Germany was met with stiff silence or a stern rebuke until I simply quite asking. I am not trying to compare this to other's who lost their livlihood, their homes etc... by being interred into camps, but I am attempting to illustrate however, that the war did impact on the behavior of those of German or Italian background. Again I make no judgement of rather it was right or wrong, simply that it was.
    That all said I offer this. For as many years as I can remember I have images burned into my brain of men of the middle east yelling and all but rioting in the streets while they burned my country's flag or an effigy of the president. I am old enough to remember the Israeli athletes being shot and thrown off the balcony of their hotel room not only on National TV, at a time when there were only 3 TV channels, but on international TV. I was a junior in high school when the Iranian embassey was taken over, when I was a senior and it was still going on our homecoming theme had to do with getting the hostages home. The images of various beaten and dead people being tossed out of highjacked airplanes, off of a cruise ship. The gapping building in which sleeping marines where murdered in their beds. And with all of these images is the background spector of a man of middle eastern descent with a holier than thou attitude that he feels gives him the right to murder civilians, rarely military people, in the name of "political gains", and even more horrifying, in the name of God. I do not believe that racial profiling is going to make this go away, but neither do I believe that bending over backwards to not offend anyone is very bright either.
    I could not help but think of my grandfather the other day while I watched street demonstrations in Paris, Rome, Bahrain, Jorden etc... full of people of Middle Eastern descent protesting Israel, yet their silence against the Palastinines who have used Terror against civilians for at least as long as Israel has existed is deafening. They demand that my country be more evenhanded, yet who demands that their country is more evenhanded? The Europeans believe that Sharon is a war criminal, but Arafat is a freedom fighter? In many ways I think it was sad that my grandfather felt that he had to cut off who he was in terms of his ethnic background, yet I cannot help but feel he had the grace to call what the Germans did by it's real name, barbarism, instead of dressing it up or blaming it on what other's did to the German's. Many American-Arab groups have come out strongly against racial profiling, and maybe I am wrong here, but how many of them have as strongly condemned Arafat and his ilk? Trust is a two way street. And for every Arab-American that talks about the Palastinines "right of return" I say then turn your home and your land back over to the American Indian tribe that called it home first.
    One last thing, my grandfather did not refer to himself as a German-American, the thought would have never crossed his mind. If he had lived long enough to have heard the politically correct term I am quite sure I would have heard that gutteral sound of disguist he could make sometimes. And I wouldn't have said he was wrong either.
  13. by   Q.
    Originally posted by rncountry
    I do not believe that racial profiling is going to make this go away, but neither do I believe that bending over backwards to not offend anyone is very bright either.

    In many ways I think it was sad that my grandfather felt that he had to cut off who he was in terms of his ethnic background, yet I cannot help but feel he had the grace to call what the Germans did by it's real name, barbarism, instead of dressing it up or blaming it on what other's did to the German's.
    Helen, as usual, very excellent and informative post.

    The two passages of your post that I quoted above were statements that I felt a firm agreement with. It is those ideas, especially the first statement above, that compelled me to post this thread.

    The point of the thread was not to discuss black vs white, German vs American. Yes I agree, singling those out who have subscribed to the Muslim extremist beliefs which lend to murdering of American civilians would be ideal - and I would want that too. But that is not possible. It simply isn't. There is an element to profiling that exists and, in my mind, must be done. There is no other way to identify potential threats to our lives without doing this to some extent.

    I am of a strong Italian descent. My grandparents and uncle were born in Sicily and came to America without a penny and without being able to speak English. We currently live in a very segregated city where people of various ethnic groups cluster together in neighborhoods. If Italy attacked our country in the manner in which Pearl Harbor was attacked, and I was profiled, searched and otherwise viewed as suspicious, I guess, as unfair as it is because I am innocent, I am not in the "mob," I would feel that under the circumstances, the United States's borders have been penetrated and our national security and way of life has been deeply threatened. If I have to be "offended" for a while in order to ensure that our country is safe again, I guess I personally feel that that is a small price to pay to ensure the safety and freedom of myself, my family, and my children.

    The neighborhood in where the Italians in my city live is fondly referred to as the Third Ward. Under the scenario I proposed above, if every city and suburb was searched or guarded, and the Third Ward was NOT as to not "offend," I would think that is not very wise and simply a political move, not done out of any thought or motivation towards safety at all. It is a mockery and not accomplishing anything. That was the point to this thread.

    Like I stated, search EVERYONE. Not just the newborn infant for fear of offending someone of Middle Eastern descent. Plain and simple.

    Moe, I didn't feel attacked by you, but that is why I posed the question to you. How do you propose that we identify people's philosophies ?? Pass out a survey before they board a plane? In an ideal world, yes, that would be the ultimate, as it would eliminate the wasted time in searching individuals who don't have that particular "philosophy." But that will not happen. It can't. Humans lie, cheat and steal. There will always be an element of profiling under circumstances such as these. I don't agree with mistreatment or violent behavior towards a particular group, but I FIRMLY disagree with avoiding them so as to not "offend" them. I feel as an American, being "offended" for a moment to ensure our safety is a small, small price to pay, IMO. American soliders pay a much heaftier price; why can't we chip in as well?
  14. by   Dplear
    Ted,

    I have a proposal for obtaining peace....KILL EVERY SCUM SUCKING TERRORIST around. When there is no more terrorists there will be no more terrorist attacks. Simple as that....Hey Susy and Tracy...wanna get out our unregistered guns and go "target" shooting?

    Dave
    Last edit by Dplear on Apr 21, '02

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