Message by John McCain about the Pledge - page 3

In light of the recent appeals court ruling in California, with respect to the Pledge of Allegiance, the following recollection from Senator John McCain is very appropriate:. "The Pledge of... Read More

  1. by   FranEMTnurse
    Quote from MellowOne
    Uh, no... Nobody is saying that "only" the government can instill proper morals. What we're saying is that schools are where children learn the majority of their social skills, and is where they spend the majority of their waking hours during the week. For schools to NOT have some part in character building is simply stupid.

    Also, nobody stated that a black single mother is "incapable" of instilling morals in her child. However, if you look at the widely available data concerning the children of single mothers, you'll find that they are at a far far higher risk of dropping out of school, arrest, conviction, drug abuse, alcoholism, and prison. While many single mothers of all races are absolutely tireless in seeing to the character building of their children, many more are not.

    When you throw into the mix that up to and over 80% of black children are born to single mothers, many of whom are not financially or emotionally prepared to raise a child, you set yourself up for an entire generation of children ill-prepared to face life. The KKK couldn't come up with a better way to hurt black America than to have schools deny the responsibility of helping stretched and stressed single parents with character building.

    The purpose of schools is to help kids prepare for the challenges that come with life. A child without self-discipline, self-control, respect for the rights of others, and a sense of civic duty is a child that will not succeed in life. It IS a part of a school's job to assist parents in developing these qualities in their students.

    Be well...

    The Mellow One
    Mellow One,

    You are correct. The classroom needs to expand on the values that are taught at home, and it is in the classroom where social skills, proper preparation for future choices as young adults, and the pledge are learned.

    My earlier statement about morality begins in the home is one I have lived by and will continue to live by until I die. And yes, I did raise my children alone, but I sought jobs where I could be with them when they were home, and I did it in spite of criticism from people in the church I attended at the time as well as others. My first job was as a teacher aide. I was even able to be my own children's. After the position was eliminated due to budget cutbacks, I cleaned houses and took them with me. Later on, I became a school bus driver, and was one for 15 years.

    My children were important enough to me to do it that way so I would continue to be able to have a better influence on them. Proverbs 22:6

    There was a time in my life when I was at the lowest point of all, even after attempting suicide, and It was at that time I gave myself to God, and accepted Jesus as my savior. I didn't know what was going to happen to me, whether I was going to become a missionary, or I was going to die, and I really didn't care which. I changed my mind about suicide because I believed then that if I did that I would go to hell, and I really didn't want to go there. It was through that act that I was given the desire to learn how to live life as a Christian via the resources of the written word, the ministry, and TV. It was through those resources that I learned what real values mean, and have molded me into who I am today.

    I currently am a non-denominational Christian, and am not afraid to say it. My reason for going that way is due to my desire to want to please God, and not to worship Him because it is the thing to do, or it is required. That way takes the fun and the love for doing it away.
    Last edit by FranEMTnurse on Apr 6, '04
  2. by   pickledpepperRN
    MellowOne:
    I like your thinking that we need a good public education where values are taught.

    That society has a responsibility for us all, even other peoples children. Head Start is a fine example of that having proven its success in reversing predicted statistics regarding incarceration and welfare in favor of productive work.

    There can be a down side. One teacher had the class pray for the devil to leave me. How did she know the devil was in me?
    I was biting my fingernails.
  3. by   fergus51
    Mellowone, I get what you're saying. I just think that children are really hurt when schools don't teach them academics. Everything else in school is secondary. They need to be prepared to go to college or get jobs, and it's more important that they can read and write than recite a pledge. That is especially true for kids who are at a disadvantage. Schools have enough to do without taking on the responsibility for raising our children with formal "morals" lessons.
  4. by   pickledpepperRN
    I agree with both of you.
    Teachers can model kindness, consideration, empathy, and tolerance without lecturing.
    The teacher needs to treat all with respect. Parents, students, authority figures, and custodians alike.
    The, "Do as I say, not as I do." teaches dishonesty.

    A dear friend taught both of my children. He claimed he never punished a child. He would make the kid who had pushed or refused to share sit still while he told a story with the principle he wanted the child to learn.

    He was like a loving grandfather, but they remember feeling they were forced to sit to make up for not behaving.
  5. by   Spidey's mom
    From my perspective, being born in 1957 and going through elementary school in the 60's, we started every morning by saying the pledge. It didn't take away any time from other areas of academics. I'm from a generation that did say the pledge so it just seems strange that there is even a fight about this. We were also "graded" on our citizenship, which meant alot of things but was mainly focused on how we treated our fellow citizens aka students. How respectful we were to the teacher.

    School was the arena where we started learning how to be good citizens. Where we learned how our country came about. What laws governed our country. What branches of government were responsible for. What the history of our country was, including the times where we struggled as a country to attain equal rights for all. Remember, this was a time when our parents, who remembered WWII or were in WWII wanted to make sure we didn't take our freedom for granted.

    When my sons were in Cub/Boy Scouts, one of their volunteer jobs was to help the local Veteran's hang flags around town. They learned the correct etiquette regarding how to treat the flag.

    I'm hardpressed to see what the heck could possibly be wrong with teaching kids respect.

    Nobody ever told me I couldn't question. Heck, I came of age in the 60's and 70's. But I would never think of dragging the flag on the ground as I hung it in front of our home. I get tearful when I hear our National Anthem. I take it seriously when I say the pledge.

    Why is that bad?



    steph
  6. by   pickledpepperRN
    Not bad at all.

    We do need to respect each others beliefs.
    Just as I am quiet when those of another faith pray the US citizens I know salute the flag even if their faith is not monotheistic. Those who are not citizens sometimes stand quietly as I used to during prayer in Protestant churches.

    Would you believe my Aunt once said we should not sing 'Jesus Loves Me' or 'Away in a Manger' because to quote, "We are Catholic and those are Protestant songs!"?

    She sang them too before she died.

    We are so diverse yet the same.

    Nurses learn to care for all the best we can. How can we teach the children to do so?
  7. by   MellowOne
    Quote from fergus51
    Mellowone, I get what you're saying. I just think that children are really hurt when schools don't teach them academics. Everything else in school is secondary. They need to be prepared to go to college or get jobs, and it's more important that they can read and write than recite a pledge. That is especially true for kids who are at a disadvantage. Schools have enough to do without taking on the responsibility for raising our children with formal "morals" lessons.
    You are correct regarding the academics. Academics should obviously job one of schools.

    For the sake of clarity, I like to substitute the term "character" to the term "morals." Many people consider morals to be tied to religion, while character is simply what is in the person.

    Without character traits such as self-discipline, self-control, honesty, and respect for others, academic learning becomes remarkably difficult, as does basic survival in a competitive free society. I put forth the premise that academic learning and character building are not mutually exclusive, but are two parts of one essential whole.

    Be well...

    The Mellow One
  8. by   Spidey's mom
    Spacenurse, you reminded me of an incident recently. My 2 3/4 year old son was sitting on the floor playing with his Tonka truck and I noticed he was singing . . . I stopped what I was doing to listen and he was singing "Jesus Love Me". It was a sweet moment.

    My mother-in-law sits him on her lap and plays the piano and must have taught him to sing that song.

    steph
  9. by   bluesky
    Quote from spacenurse
    My love for my country is something difficult to explain.
    It IS my country as my family is my family.
    Do I love my family? YES.
    Do I always approve of their actions? No.

    Our Constitution once did not respect women enough to allow us to vote. When I was a kid I clearly remember towns where I could not drink at certain fountains or even go inside to eat.

    Just as when my kids or siblings behave unkindly I feel we a citizens have an obligation to do our part to change the wrong our country does.
    At minimum we can vote and write letters to elected officials and the newspapers.
    There are many actions of this government I think are plain wrong.
    I am glad your child does not have to be drafted into the service.
    WE THE PEOPLE must at least try! Staying angry without action does more harm than good.

    Just my opinion.
    I respect your love for your country and understand your point. Perhaps it is because I was raised in two different countries myself that I mostly perceive patriotism as a sentiment used by self-serving politicians to manipulate the people. I feel that those sentiments might better be directed to a love of all humanity, regardless of nationality. The world might be a less violent place.

    I've spent a great deal of time in my life involved in the types of action that you describe (letter writing, protesting, etc) so I'm definetely not an armchair warrior! I've even done time in jail for oposing the death penalty.
  10. by   pickledpepperRN
    Quote from bluesky
    I respect your love for your country and understand your point. Perhaps it is because I was raised in two different countries myself that I mostly perceive patriotism as a sentiment used by self-serving politicians to manipulate the people. I feel that those sentiments might better be directed to a love of all humanity, regardless of nationality. The world might be a less violent place.

    I've spent a great deal of time in my life involved in the types of action that you describe (letter writing, protesting, etc) so I'm definetely not an armchair warrior! I've even done time in jail for oposing the death penalty.
    Wow!
    I respect your courage for being willing to go to jail for your beliefs and agree that nationalism rather than love of all is illogical.

    I know it is not right to be more saddened for the US troops than the victims of other nationalities.

    Although against the death penalty there have been some put to death that did not sadden me. My mind tells me all life is as prescious, yet some killers deaths don't bother me. It is probably to allow some joy in life.
  11. by   MellowOne
    Quote from bluesky
    I respect your love for your country and understand your point. Perhaps it is because I was raised in two different countries myself that I mostly perceive patriotism as a sentiment used by self-serving politicians to manipulate the people. I feel that those sentiments might better be directed to a love of all humanity, regardless of nationality. The world might be a less violent place.
    Well, my first lessons in patriotism were in school. They gave me alot of hope for the future, understanding what a great country we live in. Our schools taught of the wrongs that the U.S. has done as well as the rights. Of course, I was in school at the height of the cold war, so I appreciated our freedom compared to the oppression and dismal living conditions of Soviet block nations. That hope was important to me in that my family sucked. I knew that once I finished school, I could make my own way because of the freedom that we have. It was also taught that our freedom has come at a heavy price, and that not only do we owe many a debt of gratitude, but that part of the cost to keep that freedom is born by all of us.

    I went directly from high school into the Army. Patriotism there is obviously such that one is willing to die for country. I'm still in the Army Reserves, and still hold to that level of patriotism.

    To me, patriotism isn't a government tool. It's a deep love and reverence for the vision of the founding fathers, the Constitution, and the principles of freedom and national duty that make the U.S. unique. It's understanding the pain and blood that brought America from a group of colonies to a nation in which slavery was the norm to a country with legal oppression of the minority to a country where everyone is able to succeed on his own merits.

    Patriotism means revering the people who have paid for this growth of a nation in blood, sweat, and tears. That means the founding fathers, those who have fought in wars, those who have served the peace, those who have fought for civil rights, and on and on.

    Left-wingers like to look down their noses and ridicule the concept of patriotism. I don't understand the hatred toward the U.S. that comes from the left. To me, that shows disrespect for alot of people who have paid dearly to allow them to verbalize their ingratitude.

    But that's just me...

    Be well...

    The Mellow One
  12. by   MellowOne
    Quote from spacenurse
    Wow!
    I respect your courage for being willing to go to jail for your beliefs and agree that nationalism rather than love of all is illogical.

    I know it is not right to be more saddened for the US troops than the victims of other nationalities.

    Although against the death penalty there have been some put to death that did not sadden me. My mind tells me all life is as prescious, yet some killers deaths don't bother me. It is probably to allow some joy in life.
    I don't understand why some think that love of country and love of humanity are mutually exclusive. I hold that they are not. I love the U.S. and everything that it stands for. At the same time, I also have a deep respect for all mankind. If every nation adopted and followed a constitution similar to our own, don't you think that most international problems would begin to resolve?

    It is absolutely understandable to be saddend more for U.S. troops than other nations' troops. It is similar to being more sad at the death of an uncle than a complete stranger. A U.S. soldier is one of our own.

    Death penalty? It should be used rarely and with great care, but it should be used. There are some very bad people that just plain need to be made to go away. Child abductors and Timothy McVeigh come to mind.

    Be well...

    The Mellow One
  13. by   pickledpepperRN
    Quote from stevielynn
    Spacenurse, you reminded me of an incident recently. My 2 3/4 year old son was sitting on the floor playing with his Tonka truck and I noticed he was singing . . . I stopped what I was doing to listen and he was singing "Jesus Love Me". It was a sweet moment.

    My mother-in-law sits him on her lap and plays the piano and must have taught him to sing that song.

    steph
    I love that simple song.
    It is so good that his grandmother plays and sings with him.

    From a patriotic liberal who has no right to look down her nose at anyone.

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