How Much Leftist Ideology Has Corrupted Nursing? - page 4

I'm heading into my BScN in September, and wondering how much leftist nonsense will be in my program? Should I expect to see a lot of it, or very little? Considering it's a BSc I'm hoping very... Read More

  1. by   BCgradnurse
    Quote from Tetra
    I suppose it would depend if you think (for example) social "justice" and health care intersect. The question was regarding my schooling as well.

    I think it would be hard for me to distill the entire ideology down to something very specific, which is why I'm avoiding that. Simply, the left is postmodern and neo-marxist... and it has no business being taught in a BScN program.
    Well, social justice and healthcare DO intersect, and that is an integral part of nursing education. It encompasses the varied topics of health care as a right, giving culturally competent care, and treating all patients regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. I think you should find another field. Go into research where you can just deal with pure science and not "humanities".
  2. by   Tetra
    Quote from macawake
    Is this your version of the scientific method? In your experience... Really?

    As far as I can tell, you have applied some weird circular, transitive relation to ultimately prove that leftist ideology rejects science. You haven't provided any conclusive evidence that leftist ideology is "postmodern". It logically follows that you haven't been able to prove that leftist ideology is any more "postmodern" than any other random ideology. And as we've already covered, you haven't proven that humanities presupposes postmodernism (your experience = subjective, anecdotal).

    I find it highly amusing that you think that it's "leftist" to reject science. In MY experience people of all or of no particular political persuasion are quite capable of rejecting science. You might have noticed that south of your border they elected a (non-leftist) President who will likely continue to believe that global warming is a Chinese hoax even as freaking Greenland floods the basement of Trump Tower



    What on earth is social "justice"? Do you think it and healthcare intersect? If yes, why? If no, why not? Should they intersect?

    It would be tremendously helpful if you could clarify what the criteria required to "corrupt" nursing are? At what point is nursing in your opinion "corrupted"? I genuinely don't understand what you're saying.



    Neo-marxist??? Now I'm getting the feeling that you're just tossing random terms out there. I have no problems at all believing that you're having trouble distilling the ideology you're referring to into something specific. I'm not even sure it can be done. Instead of trying to just label things, how about you try to give concrete examples of things that you wouldn't like to see in nursing school? What is it specifically that you object to? And please, nooo more -isms
    I'm just on my mobile so can't respond in length... I'd be happy to respond tonight when I get back, or tomorrow. Thanks for a more thoughtful response.
  3. by   Tetra
    Quote from BCgradnurse
    Well, social justice and healthcare DO intersect, and that is an integral part of nursing education. It encompasses the varied topics of health care as a right, giving culturally competent care, and treating all patients regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. I think you should find another field. Go into research where you can just deal with pure science and not "humanities".
    Social justice is not justice. Justice doesn't need a modifier.

    No, health care is most definitely not a human right. So I can make a doctor go to school for 10years, pay $200,000 in school tuition, then demand free service based on the fact he / she owes what if rightfully mine, health care?! Health care is a need, not a "right".

    I suppose it could be a right if I have already paid for a service, then I would be owed the service. It's certainly not a fundamental human right though, in the case above, it would be more a contractual right.
  4. by   heron
    Quote from Tetra
    Social justice is not justice. Justice doesn't need a modifier.

    No, health care is most definitely not a human right. So I can make a doctor go to school for 10years, pay $200,000 in school tuition, then demand free service based on the fact he / she owes what if rightfully mine, health care?! Health care is a need, not a "right".

    I suppose it could be a right if I have already paid for a service, then I would be owed the service. It's certainly not a fundamental human right though, in the case above, it would be more a contractual right.
    So ... it appears that you would substitute libertarian/neocon ideology for "leftist".
  5. by   elkpark
    Quote from Tetra
    How Much Leftist Ideology Has Corrupted Nursing?
    Not enough, IMO. For reasons I can't imagine, we still let conservatives in. It's v. tedious and annoying.
  6. by   macawake
    Quote from Tetra
    Social justice is not justice. Justice doesn't need a modifier.
    As a criminologist (previous degree/career) I beg to differ. Restorative and retributive justice are two entirely different things. Anyway... From your most recent post, I'm guessing that it's the concept of distributive/economic justice that you object to.

    No, health care is most definitely not a human right. So I can make a doctor go to school for 10years, pay $200,000 in school tuition, then demand free service based on the fact he / she owes what if rightfully mine, health care?! Health care is a need, not a "right".

    I suppose it could be a right if I have already paid for a service, then I would be owed the service. It's certainly not a fundamental human right though, in the case above, it would be more a contractual right.
    I'm not sure I understand. Free service? Do physicians in Canada provide services without receiving pay? Does it matter to the physician what the source of their paycheck is, as long as they receive one?

    I've never understood the argument that healthcare isn't a right. I personally think it's disgraceful if a rich nation that has the technology and who can afford to take care of all its citizens, choose not to. Having the means to do it and deliberately choosing not to, seems cruel to me.

    Do you think that the same principle should apply to the fire department and the police? Let some folks lose their home and worst case scenario just asphyxiate/burn to death if their house catches on fire? Let some folks get mugged, beaten, raped or murdered instead of dispatching police to their location? I mean, law enforcement and fire department services are no more a "right", than healthcare?

    If you find the above too extreme, why so? Why should society protect its citizens from external threats (crimes, fires), but leave them to combat internal threats (disease) on their own?
  7. by   Tetra
    Quote from macawake
    As a criminologist (previous degree/career) I beg to differ. Restorative and retributive justice are two entirely different things. Anyway... From your most recent post, I'm guessing that it's the concept of distributive/economic justice that you object to.
    Sure, but social justice isn't simply about economic justice, I mean, it can be monetary in nature, but it's often not.

    Quote from macawake
    I'm not sure I understand. Free service? Do physicians in Canada provide services without receiving pay? Does it matter to the physician what the source of their paycheck is, as long as they receive one?

    I've never understood the argument that healthcare isn't a right. I personally think it's disgraceful if a rich nation that has the technology and who can afford to take care of all its citizens, choose not to. Having the means to do it and deliberately choosing not to, seems cruel to me.
    Of course they get paid, that's not the point though. The point is that if health care is truly a right, I'm owed that service regardless if someone is getting paid. Just because I'm a human doesn't mean I'm owed health care from others.

    Who has the means? I don't know where you are, but Canada currently cannot afford its health care system. As a nation we are in debt up to our eyeballs. I'd agree we certainly have the perception of wealth though.

    Quote from macawake
    Do you think that the same principle should apply to the fire department and the police? Let some folks lose their home and worst case scenario just asphyxiate/burn to death if their house catches on fire? Let some folks get mugged, beaten, raped or murdered instead of dispatching police to their location? I mean, law enforcement and fire department services are no more a "right", than healthcare?

    If you find the above too extreme, why so? Why should society protect its citizens from external threats (crimes, fires), but leave them to combat internal threats (disease) on their own?
    I don't think that's analogous... to comment on it though, they would be owed that service through taxation. If my taxes pay for the fire department, I'd expect help when there is a fire. It's also why I specified above, since Canadians pay for their health care though taxation, it's a "right"... in that it's a contractual right. It's not a fundamental human right though.
  8. by   macawake
    Quote from Tetra
    Sure, but social justice isn't simply about economic justice, I mean, it can be monetary in nature, but it's often not.
    The only reason I listed different forms of justice, was to refute your claim "Justice doesn't need a modifier."

    By the way, the point you're trying to make is clear as mud to me. You previously wrote this:

    Social justice is not justice.
    and now you write this:

    social justice isn't simply about economic justice, I mean, it can be monetary in nature, but it's often not.
    So what is social justice in your opinion?

    Who has the means? I don't know where you are, but Canada currently cannot afford its health care system. As a nation we are in debt up to our eyeballs. I'd agree we certainly have the perception of wealth though.
    The 3 richest countries in the world - Business Insider Nordic

    The perception of wealth? You are wealthy. You're hardly Sierra Leone or Liberia, are you? When you have economies like them, you might get away with saying that you cannot afford to provide healthcare for all your citizens. For you however, it comes down to choice. What are your values? What do you want to spend your dollars on? It basically boils down to; do you want to be selfish or not?

    After you wrote this:

    So I can make a doctor go to school for 10years, pay $200,000 in school tuition, then demand free service based on the fact he / she owes what if rightfully mine, health care?!
    I asked you if Canadian physicians work for free, and your response was:

    Of course they get paid, that's not the point though. The point is that if health care is truly a right, I'm owed that service regardless if someone is getting paid.
    Again your logic is flawed. You're conveniently pretending that the individual patient could demand a free service from the individual physician if one agrees with viewing healthcare as a right. You're choosing to ignore that there is a third party involved, society/government, and that it is that party which assumes the responsibility/burden of providing individuals with healthcare. It's not the individual physician who does this.

    I don't think that's analogous...
    Why on earth not? Death by murder, death by fire, death by disease, all have the same ultimate outcome. Death.

    So why do you regard law enforcement and the fire department as something that can be funded through taxes, but seem to think that healthcare is different? If you want to follow your ideology to its logical conclusion, you should be just as opposed to everything that society does for "the greater good". You can start by maintaining/repairing the roads and bridges you drive on yourself. Why should the goverment provide infrastructure? What made you conclude that society can bear the cost for infrastructure but not for healthcare? It's a matter of choice. Values.

    And children, they shouldn't receive any benefits, should they? They are the ultimate leeches. They haven't produced a single tax dollar, yet we as a society still take care of them when they need help? Just how stupid are we?

    No, health care is most definitely not a human right.
    It's not a fundamental human right though.
    You mean, in your opinion, healthcare isn't a fundamental right. Human rights are what we as a society collectively decide best represents our values.

    As I've already said, I don't understand why you and others insist on fixating on the issue of whether it should be called a "right", or not. What you call it is not important, it's what values that you agree on that matters.

    What do you consider "fundamental human rights"? Can you list them?

    Do you think that it's a fundamental human right to to not be randomly taken into custody by your government and subjected to torture? If so, why? It's essentially only something that we human beings have decided to agree on. In our western societies we've decided that government shouldn't be allowed to do this, but where apart from in declarations and laws created by man, does it say that not being tortured is a fundamental human right?

    Human rights are what we decide they are. Our choices. Our values.

    My comment was very specific... leftist ideology is postmodern, postmodernism rejects science, the humanities in my experience presuppose postmodernism. This is the issue.
    You still haven't provided clarification or justification for your conclusion. I pointed out why I think you conclusion is flawed. Unless you can prove your claim, I will continue to view it as an unsubstantiated personal opinion.

    Instead of trying to just label things, how about you try to give concrete examples of things that you wouldn't like to see in nursing school? What is it specifically that you object to?
    I am also still waiting for the following. As I said in my very first post in this thread; If you want any kind of meaningful answer to your query you should define exactly what you label leftest/leftist "nonsense". As far as I know, there's no universally agreed upon definition as to what qualifies as leftist nonsense.

    You still haven't managed to define what "leftist nonsense" is and what "corrupted nursing" even means. If you can't even define and specify what it is you wish to debate, this entire thread is just a word sallad exercise and I won't waste any more time on it.
  9. by   Tetra
    Quote from macawake
    The only reason I listed different forms of justice, was to refute your claim "Justice doesn't need a modifier."

    By the way, the point you're trying to make is clear as mud to me. You previously wrote this:



    and now you write this:



    So what is social justice in your opinion?



    The 3 richest countries in the world - Business Insider Nordic

    The perception of wealth? You are wealthy. You're hardly Sierra Leone or Liberia, are you? When you have economies like them, you might get away with saying that you cannot afford to provide healthcare for all your citizens. For you however, it comes down to choice. What are your values? What do you want to spend your dollars on? It basically boils down to; do you want to be selfish or not?

    After you wrote this:



    I asked you if Canadian physicians work for free, and your response was:



    Again your logic is flawed. You're conveniently pretending that the individual patient could demand a free service from the individual physician if one agrees with viewing healthcare as a right. You're choosing to ignore that there is a third party involved, society/government, and that it is that party which assumes the responsibility/burden of providing individuals with healthcare. It's not the individual physician who does this.



    Why on earth not? Death by murder, death by fire, death by disease, all have the same ultimate outcome. Death.

    So why do you regard law enforcement and the fire department as something that can be funded through taxes, but seem to think that healthcare is different? If you want to follow your ideology to its logical conclusion, you should be just as opposed to everything that society does for "the greater good". You can start by maintaining/repairing the roads and bridges you drive on yourself. Why should the goverment provide infrastructure? What made you conclude that society can bear the cost for infrastructure but not for healthcare? It's a matter of choice. Values.

    And children, they shouldn't receive any benefits, should they? They are the ultimate leeches. They haven't produced a single tax dollar, yet we as a society still take care of them when they need help? Just how stupid are we?





    You mean, in your opinion, healthcare isn't a fundamental right. Human rights are what we as a society collectively decide best represents our values.

    As I've already said, I don't understand why you and others insist on fixating on the issue of whether it should be called a "right", or not. What you call it is not important, it's what values that you agree on that matters.

    What do you consider "fundamental human rights"? Can you list them?

    Do you think that it's a fundamental human right to to not be randomly taken into custody by your government and subjected to torture? If so, why? It's essentially only something that we human beings have decided to agree on. In our western societies we've decided that government shouldn't be allowed to do this, but where apart from in declarations and laws created by man, does it say that not being tortured is a fundamental human right?

    Human rights are what we decide they are. Our choices. Our values.



    You still haven't provided clarification or justification for your conclusion. I pointed out why I think you conclusion is flawed. Unless you can prove your claim, I will continue to view it as an unsubstantiated personal opinion.



    I am also still waiting for the following. As I said in my very first post in this thread; If you want any kind of meaningful answer to your query you should define exactly what you label leftest/leftist "nonsense". As far as I know, there's no universally agreed upon definition as to what qualifies as leftist nonsense.

    You still haven't managed to define what "leftist nonsense" is and what "corrupted nursing" even means. If you can't even define and specify what it is you wish to debate, this entire thread is just a word sallad exercise and I won't waste any more time on it.
    Jeepers you're impatient... I was out last night and I'm at work at the moment.

    It's much easier for me to debate rights than it is to give you an entire history lesson on the current left's position. I have already listed a well known book by a philosophy professor on this topic, but if you're that impatient for a response, I'd encourage you to check out Dr. Peterson from the University of Toronto who holds a similar position to myself regarding postmodernism, neo-marxism and the left.

    Postmodern NeoMarxism: Diagnosis and Cure - YouTube

    At this point I'll just encourage you to do more research on the topic.

    As for the rights topic, I think you're conflating positive and negative rights. I'm not fixated per se, I just don't believe it's a right. I don't think someone has a right to another's money, to pay for a service they need.

    Anyways, breaks over... gtg.
  10. by   chare
    Quote from elkpark
    Not enough, IMO. For reasons I can't imagine, we still let conservatives in. It's v. tedious and annoying.
    Are you actually suggesting that being conservative is reason enough to deny someone entry into the nursing profession? Are there any other areas in which you believe conservatives should be denied entry? And what exactly do you find “tedious and annoying” about conservatives in nursing?

    Why stop with conservatives? Are there any other groups that, in your opinion, should be banned as well?

    And how is this post even acceptable? How long do you think it would be allowed, if I were to post “For reasons I can't imagine, we still let {insert any group other than conservative} in?”
  11. by   BCgradnurse
    Quote from chare
    Are you actually suggesting that being conservative is reason enough to deny someone entry into the nursing profession? Are there any other areas in which you believe conservatives should be denied entry? And what exactly do you find “tedious and annoying” about conservatives in nursing?

    Why stop with conservatives? Are there any other groups that, in your opinion, should be banned as well?

    And how is this post even acceptable? How long do you think it would be allowed, if I were to post “For reasons I can't imagine, we still let {insert any group other than conservative} in?”
    I believe elkpark was joking.
  12. by   toomuchbaloney
    Quote from BCgradnurse
    I believe elkpark was joking.
    It was pretty obvious to those familiar with elkpark.
  13. by   chare
    Quote from BCgradnurse
    I believe elkpark was joking.
    As many have stated in other posts, tone is impossible to discern from an online post. If this was a facetious post, I'll gladly apologize.
    Last edit by chare on Jul 27 : Reason: Spelling

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