Holy War

  1. After days of anger and sadness, I am beginning to understand
    some of the whys of this horrific event. Bin Laden has committed
    several acts of war against us, this latest the most monstrous. His
    goal is to involve America in a war, but not a war against terrorists, but a Holy War. He deliberately chose his targets so
    that we could not ignore him any longer. He wants this Holy War.
    Us against Islam. Which is difficult--because we have a large
    Islamic population here in the US. Where will their loyalties lie
    if Bin Laden gets his Holy War? His intent is to involve as many
    Islamic countries as possible.

    I have a friend (female) who was in the Gulf War--one of her
    friends went jogging one morning and was stoned to death by
    the very people she was there to help. I was horrified. This
    happened in Saudi, supossedly our "ally". Was anything done
    about this? No, women were not allowed to go anywhere after
    that without a male escort.

    This is the kind of place where they want the battle lines drawn.
    And that is his (Bin Laden) goal.

    I heard something of CNN that made sense. They call us (America) the great Satan. Is not Satan considered a source
    of great temptation? We, here in America, cannot perceive
    ignorance as being a goal. To preserve a way of life that has no
    place in modern times, he will wage a Holy War.

    Even if we did not respond to this occurrence with immediancy,
    he has other plans. I think Bush has done well by waiting--we must first find the terrorists here in the US--before going abroad.

    A Holy War. A dark ages kind of thing.

    That is all for now--kate
  2. 17 Comments

  3. by   fergus51
    Holy war is a bull$hit term. Most muslims I know are not radicals interested in fighting the great Satan or anybody else. They don't want to destroy America anymore than I want to destroy Islamic countries around the world.

    I wonder about your friend's friend who was stoned to death. For what? Why wasn't this reported on our news stations? Was she American? We report it when our citizens are in danger of being publicly flogged in Singapore, so I am sceptical that we never heard of this woman being stoned to death. And why would a woman want to go out jogging in Saudi Arabia where you have to wear an Abaya in public?
  4. by   katenexile
    Both were soldiers. She was jogging because it was required as
    part of staying physically fit. She thought she was in a "safe"

    There were many things never reported. The military controlled
    how much the media released and what. I live near a very large marine base. And I have heard way too many stories like this to
    think that this person made it up. This was her career--until she was sent
    there--she came back--4 surgeries in a year later--got the heck
    out of the marines.

    Did you serve in that war? Do you have different information?
    I would be interested in learning your viewpoints--provided
    you know people who were there or were there yourself.

  5. by   donmurray
    Holy war may be a B.S. term, but GWB is starting to use the term "crusade" Is this calculated to be inflammatory, or just ignorance? A "Crusader" in moslem terms was one of the drunken western scum who desecrated their Holy city of Jerusalem, in the 14th century, incidentally wiping out all 30,000 inhabitants, after it was taken.
    Whatever our intentions in the West, we need to remember the tightrope along which we walk, right now, and the sensitivities of our allies in this fight against terrorism.
  6. by   fergus51
    OK, I am sensing a little attitude, but to answer your question, yes, I do know a few people who served in the Gulf War. No I don't have any first hand information. I am like you, an observer. I never claimed to be an expert on the Middle East or the Gulf War or anything else for that matter.

    I just don't understand that this never made it onto the news. If that was my daughter or sister you can bet I would be telling everyone I could that this happened (that is why I was scetical, I hope you can understand that). Can you tell me why she was stoned? Was it because she was a military member? Was it because of her behavior (I can't imagine it is safe for any woman to be jogging unless she is wearing the abaya)? Did no one instruct her on SA's laws and custums and safety before she went there? Who exactly stoned her (a group of citizens or the gov't)? I am genuinely seeking information here, not looking to offend or receive any hostile replies.
  7. by   katenexile
    Thank you for your more peaceful post. First, I worked with
    the girl who had been there--and she was not a wimp. She exited the
    military after this experience. She was not a frightful type--she stood 5'9" and lean. But what she saw while there sickened
    her. You really need to ask the people who were there--they all
    have stories to tell. The girl was stoned by civilians--she was dressed in military khakis. THe military hushed it up--because
    she was killed by the very people who we were there to help.
    It made no sense.

    All the military people I talked with ( I am a nurse and work at a
    hosp close to base)--said much of the same thing--that biological
    weapons had been used--which is why so many came back
    with the "gulf war syndrome"--but the military would never
    tell that.

    She watched a women fully veiled trying to change a crying baby--
    the women laid the baby down and as she did so, part of her
    veil came loose partially exposing her face. Her husband appeared and beat her like she was a dog. My friend said the guys grabbed her(my friend) because you could not interfere
    with local practices.

    There is a lot we are not shown on television. Media manipulates
    our responses to a large degree. Were we to go to war
    in any of these Arab countries, it would not be like fighting
    someone who thought like us.

    The Brits fought in Afghanistan and lost over 50,000 people.
    This country, regardless of poverty, has a history of war---much
    like Vietnam. To them, we will never be good. Not matter how careful we might be to the rights of people.

    It is just something to think on as we are considering what direction to take--though I think retaliation will be required in the end. The first goal should be and is to make this country safe--
    to find those already here and arrest/deprt/whatever so they are no longer a threat to civilian safety. That is why there has been
    no overt military action.

    As to the term "Holy War"--I was quoting an Afghani-American who stated that was Bin Laden's goal. As to what Bush said--
    well, he isn't the smartest pres we ever elected, so don't look
    for wonderful speeches.

  8. by   Dave123
    Ok, I was there (Saudi, Kuwait, and Southern Iraq) I stayed there till the last oil well fire was out and that was in NOV 91. So I think I know a little about the middle east, the people, and the religion.

    Never heard of bio-weapons being used. There is evidence that a chemical weapon dump was blown up in late Mar91 (after ground war) and the wind blew the smoke a over a wide area. Also the Anthrax Vaccine that was given at that time is VERY suspect in the GW illness issues. Also we were given small little white pills to take everyday. I spit mine out.

    As for the stoning issue- I am also leary of the story. EVERY female soldier knows that she is to 1. Always be accompanied when off compound. 2. Be very conservative in dress and attire.

    Does the military cover up things? Sure I personally know of many things that never made the news. But I am not too sure of that one. Soldiers live around other soldiers, not around the general population. I know we were invited to witness thier brand of punishment but we declined, but it is true it is harsh. Is the story of the man beating his wife true? Probably.

    Just my opinion

  9. by   LoisJean
    Kate: I just got off of the phone with my son who was in Iraq during the Gulf War. He was on the lines with his unit out of Fort Riley, Kansas. I asked him specifically if any female GI had been stoned in Saudi for jogging or for any other reason and his emphatic answer was, "NO". I asked him if bio-chemical agents had been used against our troops and again he said, "NO" although they knew that there were caches of them.

    Like Dave, he spit his anti-anthrax med out-(and so did many, many others). Because of his proximity to the battles which were waged in the desert, I am convinced that my son and these many others would have contracted anthrax if it had been released upon them.

    I am somewhat dismayed by your references in your first post. Especially regarding, '"Islamic loyalities"'. I hope you didn't mean that we should look upon Americans of Middle Eastern decent with suspicion. If you are considering that decent people who happen to worship Allah are going to band together to destroy us from within our own boarders, please re-think your thinking.
    But, I'm almost certain that's not at all what you meant.

    Also, Kate, I am concerned with your statement regarding, "preservation of a way of life that has no place in modern times". Kate, I think you really don't mean that people who worship ancient faiths in ancient ways have no viablilty in our world. What has happened is not the way of an ancient faith...it is the misconception of that faith.

    In my educated opinion, 'holy wars' thruout recorded history and probably even before are waged because some of humankind insist on being god and, in their time, appear to succeed...Hitler could be one of many, many examples. All wars are waged for two reasons: religion and real estate.
  10. by   katenexile
    I have no problems with the religion of Islam. I have a problem
    with people who kill others because they feel that person has no value because they do not share the same religion. I am NOT
    referring to the many Muslims in this country--I am referring to
    the ones who committed this montrosity and others. They are the ones my anger is directed towards--I am concerned about the surrounding Muslim nations should we attack Afghanistan;
    the leaders say they will support is--but the leaders are not the people. It is a very difficult situation.

    I am glad to hear about the bio weapons (previous posts). I
    began travelling (I am a travel nurse) after and lost contact
    with the person who told me these things. If you met her, you
    would believe her. I think the girl stoned was given some kind of
    "internal injuries" as cause of death. My friend was career military,
    had been in for 12 years. Left after this tour. She had 4 surgeries in one year for strange tumors--she also could never have children. When I met her, she was X-ray tech--but she was in the infantry during the Gulf War.

    Another nurse, whose husband had but one year to go in the military for his 20 years, also came back--same scenario, all
    these strange tumors requiring surgery. These 2 did not initially
    know each other. Both had lawsuits. Both were convinced
    that some kind of bio thing they had been exposed to.

    Anyway--that is the sum total of the story. I worked in Jacksonville NC prior to doing the travel nursing. There was a great deal of talk. Everyone was military or related to someone
    in the military.

    Maybe I have finally clarified my position.

  11. by   fergus51
    Thanks for the reply Kate.

    I should point out though, that I am not goint to blame an entire society for the actions of few. I think the parallel between that and judging all Americans by the KKK has been made already, and it fits.

    I also think you will have to worry about lack of support from other countries outside the Middle East. No country wants to see innocents slaughtered without a purpose. I am hoping that GW does know this because he does not seem to be acting rashly yet. I hope things will stay that way. A few days after the attack, a reporter here in Canada asked our Prime Minister if he would send Canadian troops to participate in the US's assault. His reply was "Where?" which I thought was perfect. We need to wait until we know what really happened and what plan of action would be most efficient, not just jump in and start bombing.
  12. by   rncountry
    I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, however I also think it is pertainent to point out that their are people out there that make up stories of being in the service and stories to go with it. There have been many, many that exaggerated and flat out lied about their service record in Vietnam, some of those had never been in the service. Some of those people where celebrated as local heroes and some even made it into the national media. Problem was their stories were not true, they just made good stories. It is attention seeking behavior, a need to be seen as a hero or a need to be able to give an excuse for their poor behavior. This is not something that occured just with Vietnam, it is something that has happened with every war.
    My cousin did two tours in Saudi after the Gulf War. The second time he was sent home ill, with a lung ailment. The first thing that everyone thought was chemical or biological weapon residue. His mother is has been an RN for nearly 30 years and she flew to Virginia to be with him after he came home. What actually caused his illness was a bacteria that is rarely something that is dealt with in this country, though something that is normal in Saudi. His reaction to it was not any different than the reaction American Indians had when exposed to smallpox, only he didn't die thank God. He was quite ill for about three weeks but IV antibiotics did the trick. He finished out his time in the service and got out about a year ago.
    I do hate to doubt the story, but I too find it difficult that the military could hush up something so dramatic. This girl has family and I, like another poster, would have called every major newspaper in this country. Of course the argument could be made that the military didn't tell the family the true cause of death, but then I find it difficult to think that not one American who knew "the true story" would not at least attempt to let the family know what had actually happened.
    One last thing, if any of these countries had the honest to goodness capabilities to use chemical and biological weapons tell
    me why they have not been used on Israel? This tiny little country surrounded by those that hate them has managed to survive for over 50 years now, they even whipped the Arabs in the six day war when several countries did attack them in 1967, and no major offensive has ever been launched at Israel since. I don't mean to sound like I am downgrading the what could happen and what capabilities that they may have, but I also think that if the true capability to take out a major power existed they would have used it already. Instead countries like Iraq, Iran, Syria, Libia etc... use terror. Against the Israelies and against their own people. That is what we have to be most aware of and most on guard against. They do not have the ability or the balls to be real warriors.
  13. by   nurs4kids
    My dad is full of quotes...one that always stands out in my mind:

    There are three things a man will lie about.

    1) The women he's had.

    2) The money he has.

    3) The war he fought in.

    He says other than those, you can believe anything he can prove to you
  14. by   cmggriff
    I love the quote. I also am a Gulf war vet. I can porove that with my DD214 I got a letter from the Army saying I might have been exposed to some chemicals. I do not, nor does my wife (also there) suffer from GWS. We both had a little PTSD. I think I am suffering from it again somewhat. My daughter lives in Manhattan.
    We heard a lot of stories when we first got in country. Suposedly a grunt was beheaded for defecating in a mospue. I didn't hear about the jogging female, but there were other stories which turned out to be inaccurate at best.
    Besides the muslims i met there, I have also met many here in the US. As a godless westerner, I have met with the consternation of many. Both muslim and weterners. But none of them ever threatened my life or the lives of any of my family. I have even been invited to eat with them. Muslims, arabs or whatever one cares to call people of the mideast are just like the rest of us, some are nice, some aren't.
    As I have said in other posts on this board, I don't want any innocent child killed. But, better their children than ours. I'm just glad I'm not in the decision making chain. Gary