Discussion of Islam and medical care
- 8staff note: in another thread--
--a member posted some interesting information that inadvertently detoured the thread. in order to continue the conversation, her posts and the responses of those who conversed with her are being moved to this thread.
any time questions of religion and culture come up there is the potential for the discussion to become intense. please, be respectful and focus on issues and not on each other.
Quote from summitapouch. actually i'm a fully covering muslim woman and total american and yes i'm quite conservative in how i choose to practice my faith, i'm also a nursing student and i can tell you, what you wrote is pretty off target, infact i'm pretty shocked at some of the extremely oth comments nurses are writing!this type of islam doesn't care what the patient thinks because they are female. only the male's opinion matters. the female patient is their chattel, not a full person with rights. apparently, the fired male nurse didn't respect that oppression to the liking of his patient's "owners"
let me edu-ma-cate you all...first and foremost within islam there are actually several different schools of jurisprudence-sunni (hanafi, maliki, shaifi, hambali), shiaism (jafariism is the biggest) and then salafiyyah. i can tell you that in all, the general scholarly ruling is that because muslim men and women are suppsoed to observe "hijab" which is modesty in dress and behavior that, that in turn trickles down to how muslims interact with those of the opposite gender. its preferred although not 100% required for a muslim man or woman to be cared for by a doctor or nurse of the same gender. it boils down to modesty, not bigotry, not sexism, not "ownership" and definetly not "liberal islam" vs "fundie islam"...there is no such thing as liberal islam or fundie islam or this islam vs. that islam. its all islam. if a muslim chooses to not practice their religion to the fullest extent thats between them and god. thats not liberal islam. thats a personal choice.
hence why most practicing muslims-who pray, fast, cover, behave with modestly, etc etc would prefer a doctor or nurse of the same sex.
now, the majority of scholarly have mentioned that if the medical thing is an emergency and no md or nurse of the same sex can be found than its ok to have a md or nurse of the opp. gender, but its not prefered.
as a muslim female i generally ask for a female nurse or md, not cuz my husband owns me, or cuz i'm sum fundie or cuz i'm a foreigner who hasnt been liberalized and become american-lol...but cuz i follow my religion.
i'm pretty shocked at the attitude here. i agree the pts shoul have been given the choice to decide who they would see, but keep in mind, dearborn is majority arab-american and most middle easterners like most asians, indians, africans and latin americans prefer mds and nurses of the same gender!Last edit by rn/writer on Dec 2, '11
- 0Quote from poetnyouknowitThats besides the point and a separate issue. If he felt that the orders given to him were wrong, he should have taken the issue to someone so it could be handled properly. He didnt do that, he just ignored the order.My question is what was the facility policy? Did the supervisor "make up" her own policy that was not in writing and approved by the powers that be? If so, then she is imposing her own beliefs on every single patient wearing a hajib, and the nurse has a case. If the patients had stated that they wanted a female nurse, then that's a different story. Following a supervisor's instructions does not automatically mean that you are doing the right thing.
- 8Okay soo, I didnt have much time to write a nice long reply...LOL< so I'm coming back later...I just wanted to bring up a few extra points.
1) there are women from everywhere, even straight up Americans who are atheists who do NOT want a male MD or Nurse...for whatever reason. Its not solely a religious thing or a fundie thing or a middle eastern thing.
2) If you try to understand the religious ruling behind this, which I noted above and maybe seek out scholarly rulings on this-I can find them, if you want and post them, and actually read them, then when your faced with a Muslim family or Muslim woman who prefers care by a md or nurse of the same gender, you will have that already in your brain, and of if no md or nurse can be found of the same gender, you can then actually discuss it with them based on religious rulings...i.e. if they are sunni you can bring up that sunni scholars permit it if its an emergency or necessary and no md/nurse of the same gender can be found. I know it may sound like a lot, but it boils down to respecting religious diferences...even cultural in some cases. I personally, as an American and a practicing Muslim dont believe that atleast for us Muslims this is a cultural thing...because honestly its based off of religious beliefs of modesty and personal piety. Like would you expect a full out nun to be taken care of by a male doctor? probably not...would anyone raise a ruckus...no? Yet if a Muslim woman be she single, married or whatever requests it...what, that makes her subjected and "owned"??? wow, double standard.
We as nurses (and nursing students) are supposed to be understanding towards religious, personal and cultural differences...yeah, one could say, this is america...we dont do that, well like, I say, whatever...just cuz your american doesnt make you a WASP...there are plenty of Americans who dont follow typical "american" ways yet they are straight up americans...even some their ancestors came over on the mayflower...and thats one nice thing about thye USA is we all come from different backgrounds, we are a melting pot...its just being a good person and a good nurse or md by respecting peoples choices/background/religion//culture...
I do not agree with the super telling the nurse to just send all covering Muslim women to her...thats a big presumptuous...frankly, I dont think the nurse should have been sacked, if anything the super and those in charge should have been assessed as to their actions...it should not be an automatic assumption...like they should wait for the Muslim pt to request a specific type of nurse or doctor. Not assume.
And again, it really honestly frustrates me and yes upsets me...reading Nurses saying such horrible things like those women are being "owned" or, whatever...all because they wanted a female caregiver. Excuse me?!?
- 2Quote from SummitAPYouve obviously never been to KSA-my husband and I lived there for awhile to work, I can tell you that just because that happened, the majority of the Saudi population was OUTRAGED, OUTRAGED, OUTRAGED and it had NOTHING to do with Islam or Islamic rulings! I can not find any scholarly rulings anywhere or a nything from the Quraan or Sunnah that says this should be allowed. Thats ludacris!That depends on whether the Islamic Religious Police are around.
Here is an example where 15 Saudi Arabian schoolgirls were murdered; the police charged with enforcing Sharia Law (Islamic Law) forced the girls back into their burning school to die rather than allow them to be rescued without their head garments on:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1874471.stm The religious police also stopped firefighters from helping the girls because it would be "sinful" for the firemen to see the girls without their headscarves.
This example is not in the USA, but it reflects back to the idea of someone forcing their will on a patient under the guise of religion, whether it is religious police, a patient's male relative, or a nursing supervisor.
Again, blanket statement. I love who people take completely off the tangent whatevers from anything that happened previously that involved Muslims and then blankets that as a well...see, all Muslims are like this, yadda yadda yadda. C'mon!
- 3Quote from UmmIbrahimI find it kind of funny that the "obnoxious southern twang" comment caught alot more heat than that comment. Generalize women from a particular religion as "chattel" , we let that slide, but dont you dare go insultin the southerners. That kind of talk wont be tolerated round these parts.And again, it really honestly frustrates me and yes upsets me...reading Nurses saying such horrible things like those women are being "owned" or, whatever...all because they wanted a female caregiver. Excuse me?!?
- 6Quote from PedsHopefulI find it kind of funny that the "obnoxious southern twang" comment caught alot more heat than that comment. Generalize women from a particular religion as "chattel" , we let that slide, but dont you dare go insultin the southerners. That kind of talk wont be tolerated round these parts.
Yep! I seriously thing there needs to be MORE 1-understanding of Islam sans the hyped mess that is NOT true and 2-more Muslim nurses should be joining this board...I guess I better be more active eh!
As I continue to read through the replies I wanted to add that...its not right, correct or FAIR to assume that all the muslims who came here generations ago are somehow less practicing while the newbies are some how gonna be more practicing aka...fundies...that is ENTIRELY wrong!!! Okay, first off...from my own life experience...Many of the born in America Muslims-either converts or born Muslim actually try to practice the religion, because they actually can. Frankly, many Muslims who come here from abroad actually have serious-not all, but it seems like quite a few-have seriously hangups where they confuse their religion-Islam with their culture-whatever it may be. Ya'll are mixing up Muslim peoples cultural backgrounds and beliefs with their faith. Guess what, you can NOT!
Just because a Muslim woman is covered head to toe in niqab (face veil) gloves and a long gown NEVER ASSUME she is a-a hopeless uneducated foreigner, 2-a fundie, 3- "owned/chattle"...cuz I will tell you right now, your assumptions age gonna be 9times outta 10 false!! the majority of the Muslims whom I know who "dress Muslim"...are actually Americans...black, white, asian, arab, african background...whatever...
Seriously, there needs to be more understanding of our religion, cuz there are some serious and SCARY mistaken beliefs floating around here, which frankly trip me out, cuz heavens forbid I go to a md's office and request that I see a female MD-if available and I get a nurse who thinks I'm an owned piece of foreign chattle 'n crazy fundie...cuz seriously, this east coast American Muslim will go OTH!
Ya'll need to go to Philly and be around the predominantly AMERICAN Muslim community there...it'll shatter all of your assumptions!
- 1Quote from UmmIbrahimLOL, I was born and raised in Philly. I live in Wisconsin right now, but my mother, who is a practicing Muslim and has made the trip to Mecca twice, still lives there.Ya'll need to go to Philly and be around the predominantly AMERICAN Muslim community there...it'll shatter all of your assumptions!
- 0Quote from PedsHopefulLOL, thats awesome, so you know what I mean...thats one reason why it irks me sooo much...all these assumptions as Muslims in America as foreign as an "other"...guess what, its not true, there are plenty of born and bred, some with mayflower descendents or descents of those who were forcibly brought here in tethers who are Muslim and practicing and who cover! Its not just all foreigners.LOL, I was born and raised in Philly. I live in Wisconsin right now, but my mother, who is a practicing Muslim and has made the trip to Mecca twice, still lives there.
Yeah, Philly's Muslim community...I always love to use it as an example of a predom. American predom. practicing Muslim community here in the good ole USA.
- 2Quote from rn/writerJust curious, UmmIbrahim. Have you seen the new show called, American Muslim, on TLC? If you have seen it, what did you think?
Ohh man, im taking over this thread...I'm sorry.
Frankly I have mixed feelings about that show, one 1 hand, I feel like its a positive step in the right direction as showing that there are indeed American Muslims in the USA and that show us as normal, average people who practice Islam. Not wackos or something.
BUT, my major qualm, and most of my friends feel similarly is that they are only depicting one slice of American Muslim existance...they choose families which while born here are still 1-of middle eastern background, 2-dress fairly "mainstream" and 3-sometimes choose to do things which contradict religious beliefs...such as opening a nightclub/bar. I feel like they should have had atleast 1 family which was NOT of Middle Eastern descent vs. all Middle Eastern or mixed marriage-1 spouse middle eastern, the other American...I feel that would go a long way in showing that not every Muslim is of middle eastern background...and 2, they should have put on atleast 1 family which dressed more conservatively and practiced Islam more conservatively...not because I feel that conservative Muslims are "true" Muslims...cuz only God knows...BUT because again, there is this mistaken belief that if you have on a scarf and jeans and a top your somehow more liberal, more american, more...pleasant?!? mainstream...verses the Muslim woma in a scarf and say a long coat, or gown or more conservative Muslim dress or even niqab. Then they'd show that look just cuz the wife covers entirely...doesnt mean shes still NOT American and...yes...normal.
See what I mean...its a step in the right direction , cuz we r human too, not owned cows-LOL...and I realize they probably wanted to choose more "Mainstream" families because maybe, I dunno....it would be less surprising to viewers...but still, I feel they could have tried a bit more in that direction...ya'know.
But yeah, i wish more nurses on this thread would atleast watch that. LOL.